The Limits of Jesus in His Church
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Isn’t it amazing how restricted we are from the spirit world. First God gave the Commandment to have no other God but He. So we shut down all spiritual knowledge outside of the specific consciousness of God. Then we were given access to one soul as proof that both God exists and souls enter an afterlife. From that restriction we have had to figure everything out spiritually. What an interesting prison we are in. And more interesting, that we have accepted it. We are trying awfully hard now to break out of this prison. But when reality to us, in essence, is only God, humans and the equivalent of inert matter, we are having a very difficult time of it. Creation is much more than this simple trinity. And Creation is much more simple than our complex theology. But the Christian perspective is wholly human-centered, as much as we think it is God-centered. God is defined by the services He renders unto us. What is outside of this pipe, with humans at the one end and God at the other? Science is making great gains with its perspective using physics. How can we find out what is outside of the pipe spiritually to help us answer the question we have not been able to answer: what is Jesus? Who are we? And what is reality if we know it is something fundamentally spiritual? Those are dangerous questions when one has to confront them. Are Christians as courageous as the early scientists were in challenging our taboos? Are we ready to admit that we misinterpreted the Commandment? Yes, we shall have no other God, but the Creator did not say that the spirit world did not exist. Just don’t worship the other spirits as God. We dropped the ball on that one. Now we have wiped out all other spiritual knowledge in our ignorance and we are scrambling to explore what’s left in the world to see how the Church can absorb it like it did Aristotle, Plato and Socrates. Jesus is the center leading to God. He is the light in the darkness, but we created much of the darkness ourselves. Now, we do not know what is in the darkness that the Light is standing in. We are fixated on the human soul that got so close to God. Yet why have we made no progress in the debate about who He is? What was the condition of His reality that we cannot grasp? He knew He was standing in something more than the inert matter we could perceive. And the inert matter responded. How could He manipulate matter with just a thought? What made Him so special as to be chosen to see what we were not allowed to? And more importantly, what did He know that we have barely penetrated? Do we really appreciate our limits? Do we know what creates our limits? We only have the Bible, coincidences that answer prayers, and the wisps of wisdom that come to our thoughts. Is there anything more? Are we allowed to know it yet? |
Comments
knowledge of the tree...
I would like to ask Sun Warrior a question. The gist of your argument is that we have put ourselves in an untenable position and that we need to break out of it, in order to do what?
Is it esoteric knowledge or something else that you seek?
Knowledge could be a sort of a ‘holy grail’ and perhaps it always has been for humans but one thing that we do know is that the bible teaches us that knowledge is not salvation. Salvation is only in Jesus.
If you find Him limiting then I think you don’t know Him well enough (no offense intended).
Live to serve : Serve to live
Limits of Jesus in His Church
In the 1930s the Church of England experimented with home-grown ‘sensitives’ within that community (e.g. Vivian Deacon, Gerald de Beaurepaire ), in communicating with those who had ’ passed through the Veil ’ in any epoch.
Apparently, contact was established with certain persons : e.g. Archbishops Randall Davison and Cosmo Lang ; also various eminent persons including Judge Edmunds.
The general tenor of the ‘communion’ (their word) was that the Church was hopelessly weak because of the break in the ’ Communion of Saints both Living and Departed ‘, that link which in the Early Church was apparently much stronger…… and in Patriachal times even more so. There was crystal-clear two-way traffic between God and the prophets, God and the Apostles, between humans, Angels and Archangels.
Why has it all gone pear-shaped?
Modern Gnostic Pantheism...
If I understand you correctly (which is highly unlikely), you are calling for us to pursue an other-worldly “wisdom” in order to appeal to a pseudo-spirituality in our post-modern culture.
If that is what you’re saying, then you are bordering on a gnosticism - the worship of the secret “wisdom.” I hope I am misunderstanding you.
Gotta Be Honest...
I cannot even comprehend the Christianity that you’re describing and assuming I adhere to…
Of course God does not create inert matter. There is no such thing. All things are in motion. To be inert is to be dead, and all things echo and resonate the Creator. But I don’t understand why that gives you license to go wandering off into this nebulous, ethereal, Underhill-esque mysticism.
You’re asking us to abandon what the Bible says about the spiritual world and adopt some kind of mystical, ascetic pantheism (or at the very least panentheism) that far exceeds what God has given us. It seems like you think the church has imposed some kind of universal limitation, as if “the church” has the authority to do that. Certain hierarchal churches might try to do that, but in reality they are only deluding themselves.
Yes, modernism has blinded us to the immaterial, but a faithful student of God’s Word knows that is foolishness. There are forces in creation that are greater than natural laws and science. Things happen in our world that are not in anyway quantifiable by human knowledge or experience. But as I’ve said already, their existence does not give us license to wander around and worship creation more than the creator - this is expressly forbidden in Romans 1.
But since it is clear from your statements that your “faith” is not defined by the Bible but by your desire to experience the spiritual world, I don’t expect you to accept that.
The catholic and orthodox
The catholic and orthodox traditions have a lot of history in the spirit world that goes beyond the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The communion of Saints is still a vital ingredient to these faiths. To the catholics there is the church triumphant, and the church militant, (saints in heaven and saints on earth) which comprise the universal church. We believe that the saints, as well as angels are all part of the christian experience. The Trinity is the absolute center of all our worship, yet we believe that our prayers and the prayers of all the saints are available and important.
mike
We have mixed up two different things, two opposite things. Progress should mean that we are always changing the world to suit the vision. Progress does mean (just now) that we are always changing the vision. G.K. Chesterton, Othodoxy.
Sorry
I do not represent mainstream “orthodoxy.” I am just a simple guy who loves God and believes His Word. Feel free to worship Mother Earth or whatever other spirits you choose but I will not and here is the reason.
“You shall have NO other gods before me.” (Exodus 20:3)
“Consider it in your heart, that YHWH himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.” (Deuteronomy 4:39)
“…that all the people of the earth may know that YHWH is God; there is no other.” (1 Kings 8:60)
“I am YHWH, there is NO other.” (Isaiah 45:5)
I do not choose Christian orthodoxy. I choose the worship of the one true God - the God who existed before creation and is not a part of it, the God who is wholly other.
You are free to worship whatever and whoever you choose to, but don’t throw it out as Christianity because it isn’t. And don’t say the Bible allows for the worship of things other than God Himself because it doesn’t. Am I dogmatic on this point? Absolutely, unequivocably, without apology.
Truth
I think therefore I am said one thinker some time back.
I agree that there is a lot that can be said about orthodoxy boxing in our thinking and therefore making us less than we should be. Still I would ask whether more thinking (or even different thinking) is going to get us out of our own boxes?
I believe that God has been active in revealing Himself to all people everywhere. I believe that there is truth to be found in all religions and cultures including Islam and Hinduism and I certainly believe that I as a Christian have not yet known my Lord as well as I should or even could.
But, the distortions of God’s truth say in Hinduism are greater and more dangerously so (to my way of thinking) than in Christianity - poverty stricken religion though it may be. The reason for my belief in Christianity is that it tries to project Jesus, very imperfectly perhaps, but the focus is in the right direction. I believe that that is something that I have to live with because to abandon Christianity as imperfect will pull me away from the only community of believers in Christ. On my own, my poverty/perversity of thought and variable will to follow Him will be all too obvious and soon I will find myself destroying myself.
I would rather concentrate on knowing Him better and letting Him lead me to the truth or as much of the truth+love+justice+righteousness as He believes that I can tolerate.
I don’t believe that finding truth will involve interacting with other spirits simply because I don’t believe that my interaction with Jesus (in the first place) is adequate or complete and without that, the rest is meaningless. Ultimately, I do not save myself, He pulls me out of the mire and sets me free. My unregenerate mind will always resent it but yet it’s true.
I am the way, the truth and the life was Jesus’ claim. This is not a call to more thinking, deeper thinking or different thinking, it is a statement of fact - acccept it or reject it as you will.
Live to serve : Serve to live
finding spirits?
“Without a little more knowledge of the spirit world we will remain in our confusion...”
I’m afraid that I still don’t get it. What is it about discovering the rest of God’s creation - including whatever spirits are present - that will help us through to leaving our minds out of the equation, and even if we do succeed, how is that supposed to help us to discover God?
Again, I agree that much theologising may not be a great help and may even be a hindrance. But the tendency to ‘do theology’ is precisely a result of tiny, finite, flawed minds trying to come to grips with God and His infinite love and His strangely effective, but impossible to comprehend, work of salvation.
one reason why I keep going back to the bible and particularly to the gospels is that there is a needed corrective there in the reality of Jesus Himself that brings me back from my fantasizing about what I believe and how poorly I practise. Ground reality is Jesus.
I can only hope that my encouters with Him have some effect on me to make me just a little more like Him. But I can’t begin to approach if I refuse to encounter Him and that starts with His words of life.
Paul tells us that we are in Christ Jesus, would that that would be more and more true!
Live to serve : Serve to live
clarity
Sun Warrior: You may be right. I would agree with you that we do have much to learn from other cultures and the associated religions for it is silly to think that God has not been actively trying to reconcile all peoples to Himself throughout history. Specific questions arise and I would like to try to ask some of them.
As to the ‘other spirits’ and what you term overall as ‘creation’ certainly we don’t have a great deal of knowledge and you suggest that we have to accept and learn more intuitively than mentally. But, do you see these as fellow travellers in this fallen world or were these not a part of the fall and hence would be more in the form of guides that we should look up to? i.e. basically good beings who are themselves in unbroken communion with God. Relatedly perhaps would be your views on the followers of native religion - are they fallen and in need of salvation or have they too been protected due to their increased spiritual awareness from the effects of sin?
Why specifically do you feel that the native religions may have something to offer that Eastern and Western traditions do not? Are you arguing that the less ‘mind’ is applied to religion the purer it has to be or are there specific aspects of the native religion that make you feel that we are missing some truth/insight that they have to offer?
You say that Jesus was “sent” to get mankind through this difficult phase of mind being ascendent over spirit/soul and in this context how would you define salvation - God’s saving work in Christ? Why did jesus have to die? You seem to limit Jesus to just being a pointed reminder from God that man was going astray by allowing mind to dominate too much (but I am probably jest reading too much into that).
And what are your views on God? I know that that is a really dumb question but if I were to jettison concepts like trinity and ‘being of one substance’, would I end up with Jesus as God’s Son or with something else; an especially powerful Messenger perhaps (in the tradition of the prophets) but intended to be a perpetual conundrum and so a perpetual reminder, or just a holy person who obeyed God to the point of death and so a great example of what God wants me too to do?
Live to serve : Serve to live
Not sure Where You're Going With This...
But only a fool of a Christian does not believe that God is all there is to the spiritual world. The Bible is quite clear that there are others who are spiritual (read anything non-physical). There are angels, demons, Satan and other forces we cannot comprehend.
For example, in Daniel nations are spoken of as if they are represented in the spiritual world - led by forces greater than humans. As another example, throughout the history books, YHWH makes war on the gods of other, lesser nations. In Ephesians, Paul speaks of wrestling with forces greater than flesh and blood. In Colossians, he deals with those who worship angels.
I will admit that modern Christianity may have tried to downplay the existence of other forces, but that is a relatively recent phenomenon. The biblical world was filled with spiritual forces, and there is no reason they do not exist today.
However, to speak of exploring these “taboos” as part of Christian “science” is foolishness. YHWH is the one God we are called to love and honor. Those who know him and choose to follow false gods are in danger of punishment from him. Remember the golden calf?