This post relates to some comments made on the Is Rome Babylon? thread.
I don’t think the emerging church would want to take such an insecure and antagonistic stance towards Islam. Apart from the fact that I think your reading of Rev. 17:9-10 is mistaken, my sense is that the instinct of the emerging church as it encounters Islam in the West at least will be to act as peacemakers, to mediate between Islam and secular western society, to be a force for mutual understanding. We cannot paly that role if we are driven by fear and hatred.
To my mind there is little to be gained by attacking the extreme positions - you simply push them further away. The responsibility of the church, which is always subject to the lordship of one who embodied the love of God for the world even to the point of suffering, is to demonstrate a way that is good and righteous. It’s never going to be easy to define what that good path is, but if we allow ourselves to be trapped in a polarized, antipathetic, judgmental mindset we make it almost impossible. The church surely has the spiritual, moral and imaginational resources to do something better than reinforce misunderstanding, fear and intolerance.
Andrew,To be blunt, yours
Andrew,
To be blunt, yours is a typical Emergent self-morally-superior comment.
Step One: Accuse me of being only motivated by Insecurity, Ignorance, Hatred and Fear. (Don’t you think that such radical accusations will only polarize the conversation and drive me away?)
Step Two: Paint your approach as far more enlightened, moderate and Christ-like. How wonderful and humble of you.
Andrew, simply put, one cannot be accused of being hateful when critisizing an ideology. One can only be hateful toward indiviudals. All men are created in the image of God. And it is the friend who speaks lovingly yet straightforwardly to men regarding the ideology that is the enemy of their souls, of God and of mankind. You cannot make peace with Satan. But you can make peace with some of Satans followers. You might even help lead them to Christ. I have more radical Muslims that respect me for my honesty, than those who do not. They have personally expressed such on many occasions.
Let me ask you, was St. Francis not a peacekeeper when he marched into the camp of Sutan Kamil and called on him to repent and become a Christian? The two became friends and developed a great measure of respect for one another. Informed honesty is a far better policy than self-superior politically correct banter. Nicholaus Berg took this approach. Look where it got him.
What would your approach have been toward the Nazi regime during WWII. Would you have been a bridge builder then betwwen the Nazis and the rest of the World also?
I recommend While Europe Slept, written by a gay American now living in Europe. Also the author a fundamental Christian bashing title Stealing Jesus.
Also a must read:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/105/22.0.html
Excerpt:
Sheikh Omar Bakhri dicsussed his feelings about Jay Smith of Hyde Park Christians Fellowship:
You have debated American evangelicals like Jay Smith. Do you only believe in debating or do you see a place for dialogue?
Debate and dialogue is the same. A treaty is dialogue. No inter-faith; religions are not the same. Debate is fine.
Talking of Jay, what do you think of him and other evangelicals that you have met?
I feel very comfortable with Jay – with him, what you see is what you get. He is no hypocrite, and neither are Salafis. His words and actions match his heart. He does not pretend by saying soft words about Islam. The Qur’an calls for debate.
Specifically, what do you think of U.S. evangelicals?
Most U.S. evangelicals refuse to debate Muslims, unlike the courage of Jay who boldly cries “Jesus is Lord!” I am always willing to meet him.
Hi Joel, I have red the
Hi Joel,
I have red the article you suggested in christianity today. I thought the article was very interesting. What strikes me in your comment, though, is that you seem to take the respect of , as you say, radical Moslems as a confirmation of your point of view. Honestly, if human beings that defend killings in the name of God (as the person in the article you refer to does) would show me their respect because of my faith; I would have to start asking myslef if I was still following Christ - to say the least.
Paul,Not sure of your
Paul,
Not sure of your point. Are you inferring that we should purposefully aim NOT to accheive the respect of radical Muslims? You seem to be saying that because a radical Muslim does respect your straightforwardness about your beliefs, that you are thus not following Christ? This certainly doesn’t make any sense.
The idea Paul, is that Jay blatantly calls these radical Muslims to Christ. For this, Sheikh Omar expresses his respect for Jay. What Sheikh Omar is appreciative of is honesty and courage. Traits that we can all applaud. Certainly you wouldn’t say that just because Sheikh Omar is a faithful Muslim who adheres to the teachings of Muhammad, that his respect is unworthy of being recieved? This would be in my opinion rather judgemental on your part. Depite the fact that you do not accept his worldview or his theology, he is nonetheless a faithful Muslim striving to follow God according to his own understanding. You might not respect his beliefs, but you must respect his humanity.
Joel, No, we shouldn't
Joel,
No, we shouldn’t purposelly aim not to achieve the respect of anyone, including radical Muslims. But someone can ask the question why radical Moslems are attracted to some Christians and the other way round. If it is because the christians show more humility, readiness for peace, moderation, mediation then this is a good thing. But if radical followers of other religions pay respect to some christians, because they see in themselves the same kind of believer - outspoken, shouting ‘Jesus is Lord’, having no doubts in what they belief, supporting wars, knowing how right they are and how wrong others,… then I do have a problem with that. And to your question: I actually do not respect the aspect of someone’s humanity of a person that defends killings in the name of religion. And I don’t have to. I can respect this person’s beliefs but not to the point of supporting terror. And this is exactly what irritated me when reading your comment. Why do you stress that people respect you that support this kind of actions? what was it that you wanted to say with that? Likewise, I do have the impression, that this respect goes mutually. You seem to respect radical moslems more than those who call on moderation. I understand that you do not agree with Islam but it just seems to me you are paying respect to the wrong people. I might be wrong with this guess, but this unsettles me and I actually do not think that this is reflecting Christlikeness.
Re: Joel,
Joel was answering Andrew’s concern that “there is little to be gained by attacking the extreme positions - you simply push them further away”. Andrew and you seem to believe that extreme positions reveal an internal inconsistency, while Joel’s point is that extreme positions reveal consistency with an extreme belief.
For Joel, Islam is one such extreme belief. For you, extremists are somehow outside of the scope of rationality. You believe there is something intrinsically wrong with the extremist. For Joel, there is something intrinsically wrong with Islam, whereas the extremists are just being faithful to the religion.
Joel believes these extremist people want to do good, and he believes he can reason many of them towards what is really good. Perhaps because of that the many extremists respect him. Joel is respecting their intellect, their potential for rejecting evil and embracing goodness. Anecdotal evidence that this is possible is e.g. Walid Shoebat. A former Palestinian terrorist turned into a denouncer of the evil of Islam.
Re: Joel,
Why shouldn’t moderate muslims be allowed to define Islam? Or why can’t the same argument be made for Christianity - that it is essentially consistent with the interpretation and practice of Christian extremists (the apocalyptic cultists, for example, or radical prosperity teachers)? You wouldn’t have to look very hard, either, to find a Christian equivalent of Walid Shoebat.