Here’s my take on the gender issue.
There is a body of scripture that seems to indicate that there is a difference between the roles that women and men have in the church (as well as in family, marriage, life.. but we’ll stick to church). I agree that scripture teaches that there is a difference.
Now, what to do about that difference. Some churches interpret these passages to mean that women can do "nothing" in the church. These churches know their Bibles and their leaders have gone to Seminary, and somehow they have come to that conclusion.
At the other end of the continuum, some churches interpret these passages to mean that there is no difference at all. That women can have any role in a church, or even denominational leadership roles over 100s of churches. I believe that this is disregarding the Bible’s teaching that there is a difference.
So, we are left with a decision. Where on that continuum do we choose to draw a line. Do we draw it down close to the fundamentalist churches who won’t even let women ushers pass communion trays to men? Or do we draw it somewhere closer to those churches who say there is no difference at all?
My opinion (that’s all it is), is that I would like to draw a line that gives women as much leadership and responsibility in the church as possible, that utilizes their gifts to the fullest possible extent, while still honoring the difference that scripture teaches.
So I choose to draw that line at Elder. I find no descriptions of women Elders in scripture, and I do find prescriptions that Elders be men. I believe drawing the line at Elder is the best way to give women as large a role as possible without thumbing our nose at the Bible.
My 2 cents.
Re: The Role of Women, My 2 Cents
i read you post, ken, and i had to take a deep breath and shoot up some prayers before writing my comment because - how can i say this gently? and with love? - you have framed your post very crassly. It seems as though you picked the ‘issue’ - that’s me, a female and follower of Jesus, and, as it happens, a degree in theology - for an interesting debate. There’s no indication of any prior thought or study - where are your references? your exegesis? a discussion to lead us to understand your position? - instead you offer ‘your two cents worth’, you ‘draw a line’ that in large part defines my service to Christ. That’s not exaggeration, ken, that’s how it is and how my life has been up to this point. I don’t know if you have had any interaction with women on this topic but I would like you to know how painful this is for me and many other women. I know a woman who was a missionary for twenty years and taught in an esteemed British bible college for another 15 years or so and is now in a church where she cannot even lead a bible study. It makes me angry to see a woman of immense experience and talent as well as knowledge effectively gagged. So, to come to my point, I want more than ‘two cents worth’ from you ken because I think that I and my sisters deserve that from you - even if at the end of the day you disagree with us; at least I would feel that I had been respected because you have given the proper attention needed.
Since I have a baby to care for and not much time, I must now do the very thing I accuse you of! I will reel off my list of women who surpass your benchmark of ‘elder’ (what’s that mean exactly?) without all the references. Sorry! But i am sure that you will find them:
Priscilla (who with Aquila) taught Apollos and was a co-worker with Paul - Acts ?
Phoebe the deacon (please note translation issues here) - Rom 16
Junia the apostle (again, translation issues) - Rom 16
The Samaritan woman at the well, arguably the first evangelist - John 4
Mary Magdalene, sometimes called the ‘Apostle to the Apostles’ - Matt 28 etc
Chloe - a church leader
Lydia - also a church leader
I think that will do. Also see the following as well as your bible and commentary:
Ken Bailey has a pdf doc on OST about women in the NT.
Tom Wright has a doc on his site: www.ntwrightpage.com
Ann Brown, Apology to WOmen
Mary Stewart Van Leeuwen, Gender and Grace
Elaine Storkey, Men and WOmen: Created or Constructed?
Mary Evans, Women in the Bible
and Andrew Perriman has a book on women and Paul that sadly I have not read because it is too expensive! If you’re reading this Andrew could you please give OM India the right to publish your book here so that we can buy at an affordable price? That would be great!
Thank you too, ken, for your time,
in Christ,
luiza
Re: The Role of Women, My 2 Cents
episkopos, as used in 1 Tim 3. Translated Bishop or overseer or elder.
I agree that women can be leaders, apostles, evangelists, prophets, deacons, teachers, and more. There are many examples in the Bible of this, some of which you have noted.
However, there are no examples in the Bible of women having the role or office of episkopos. Further, the qualifications for episkopos as outlined in 1 Tim 3 contain clear gender references (man, husband).
I regret that you have taken this so personally. I had been reading some of the other threads that cover this issue and just wanted to add a few comments. I did not think I needed to rehash all of the scriptural references that have been discussed.
I am sorry that your friend is in a church where she is not allowed to be a leader. She should prayerfully consider leaving that church.
Ken Bussell Minister of Music & Administration Our Place Christian Church
Women and eldership
One of the questions we might ask here is: To what extent are patterns of community in the New Testament derived from prevailing cultural norms? Eldership is not a gift of the eschatological Spirit, it is not a mark of new creation; it is a form of leadership found in comparable Jewish and Gentile institutions, and indeed natural to ancient societies. Arguably it was adopted by the early church more or less unthinkingly because it was culturally appropriate - it provided a community structure and order that people understood and knew how to implement, a framework within which to develop the gifts and the fruit of the Spirit.
If that is the case, it actually becomes incumbent upon the church today to reflect in its patterns of leadership the forms of leadership (or non-leadership) that currently prevail in society. If women are seen to function effectively within collective leadership structures in political and commercial organizations, for example, I see no reason in principle to exclude them from similar collective leadership structures within the church. Leadership, I would suggest, only has to serve the purpose of enabling and protecting the manifold and egalitarian activities of the Spirit.
Re: The Role of Women, My 2 Cents
There have been a few discussions around these issues already on OST. You can access a list of them here. It’s worth getting a sense of the range of responses, and it may also help avoid repetition.