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The view from over here to 'over there'

Listening in to the ‘chatter’ on the ‘secular satire v. muslim rage’ forum recently, the impassioned views of folk in the US, which have particularly taken into their orbit the relationship of church and state, and international perceptions of the US as a ‘Christian nation’, have been perplexing me. In fact making about as much sense as a conversation between the elderly men on the muppet show (no offence intended).

There seems to be an intensity of interest and concern about relationships between state, citizens and Christian faith which is probably quite difficult for UK folk to identify with or understand. Much of this may be to do with the US involvement in Iraq - which is much greater and more costly, in terms of lives and finance, than it is to us in the UK (though it is probably the one issue which has been the turning point in the downward fortunes of our present PM, and possibly his party).

There seem to be other issues as well - which in the US are to do with the way a biblical faith relates to civic and political responsibilities. There seems to be something of a debate taking place - between those who feel that Christians should unite with any sympathetic groups around key moral issues for change (the ‘religious right’ phenomenon?), and those who feel the opposite - that the key is for the power of the state to be rolled back, and private, alternative organs take on the provision of education, social care etc (ie the church provides as much it can for the social well-being of the nation - and its own people - as possible). Within this debate is a much keener sense of the US being a nation with a destiny from God, from the founding fathers onwards, than anything comparable in the UK (although it is here too - but being addressed in rather different terms).

I hadn’t realised, and from a UK perspective haven’t seen before, the kind of theological forums which in one way or another seem designed to address this debate. I’ve read Francis Schaeffer for years, but hadn’t realised he was influenced by one R.J. Dunroony (now deceased), whose views are propagated on the Chalcedon website. Neither had I encountered Dominion Theology, or Christian Reconstructionism in any particular way, until rather naively stumbling onto it in recent explorations of preterism on US websites. In fact I am viewing any theology or eschatology which has the word ‘Covenant’ prefixed to it with rather newly opened eyes - since this seems to be a school of theology (or theologies) which attach themselves to one or more of the Dominion or Reconstruction schools of thought - which in themselves are attempting, through a variety of emphases, to address the issue of the church’s relationship to the state.

Kenneth L. Gentry’s ‘Before Jerusalem Fell’ is a seminal advocate of an early date for Revelation - and with it the possibility of significant prophetic detail concerning the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 - up to and including chapter 17. The book contains no overt reference to any political agenda - it is a work of pure (and delightful) scholarship. Except that Gentry does refer in an appendix to the five points of ‘covenant theology’ - a development of reformed theology which includes a commitment to a postmillennial view of the church’s future, and apparently supporting Dominion/Reconstruction theology.

The book is published by American Vision, but the name of its previous publisher was the Institute for Christian Economics, associated with Dr Gary North, who seems to be promoting his own brand of alarming apocalyptic scenarios concerning the future, though he got it radically wrong (along with many others) with the Y2K meltdown. Again, North seems to be an advocate of Dominion theology.

In all of this there are serious concerns about (covert) religious agendas driving American foreign policy, the appropriation in public life by right wing politicians of evangelical Christian faith, and the effect this is having on Muslim perceptions of the US, and the western world in general. Although, as Makaden has remarked in one comment, this perception (and anger) is also driven by factors such as economic imperialism and global injustice. 

I am sure also that somewhere in all of this, there is a serious attempt to debate issues of how the bible ‘applies to all of life’ - in a way that has never really taken root in the UK, probably because the church has generally been the poor relation of the organs of power - in politics, the media etc., and has not had the generally widespread allegiance of the population as in the US. In the UK. to be a Christian is to be the underdog of society.

Is anyone able to cast light on some of the issues raised in this post - the US’s self-perceived sense of destiny as a nation in the world, an explanation of Dominion theology / Christian Reconstruction in relation to the public life and politics of the US, and as a theology which deserves our serious attention, and why preterism is being regarded as important in the argument - given the nearly overwhelming enthusiasm for premillennial, esentially futurist schemes to which the church in the US is wedded?

And what does it feel like to be a Christian, or even just a citizen, in the US, where the Iraq war is taking such a toll of lives, and seems so often unable to be separated from a religious agenda?

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Re: The view from over here to 'over there'

Peter, I appreciate you for pointing out what many of us here might not realize.  It is so easy to forget that other people in this forum come from such a different background and may not understand all the cultural baggage that comes along with our posts.

In my experience I can confirm that many things you hear about the very prideful and arrogant views of U.S. citizens are very true.  There are many people that feel the goal of the U.S. should be to enforce our political agenda on the rest of the world.  The worst part is that most of these views come from Christians.  Many of you have seen my rejection of what I call “Christian fundamentalism” which I’ve learned has different connotations overseas.  When I use that word it generally refers to this poisonous mixture of literalist biblical interpretation (creationism, “end times” / futurist eschatology) combined with extreme right wing politics.  There are many of these people in our nation and it is painful to deal with them.  Some of my avid rejection of literal biblical interpretation is a knee jerk reaction to my experience with these types of people. I have to apologize to many you that have been incorrectly lumped into that group in my posts.  It is a real problem here in the U.S.  There have been numerous books (the left behind series for example) that prey on these people and feed their intensity and sense of religious superiority.  This problem is definitely growing and our country is becoming more polarized.

For us Christians here that feel that the war is wrong we often feel left out of the conversation.   The word “Christian” is fast becoming synonymous with words like “war monger”, “patriot”, “unforgiving”. “exclusivist”, etc.  In the last 20 years the right wing politicians figured out that if they adopted one or 2 key political issues (anti-abortion, anti-homosexual) that they could “steal” the Christian vote from the other party.  Well it worked!  In the process what happened was that we no longer have a large section of Christians that actively take stands for social and economic justice issues.  The reason I am so insistent on sharing my non-literal view of the bible is because I see first hand the problems that result from an exclusive fundamental view of the bible. 

From a personal perspective I value the message of Jesus as a highly political message about justice and sociopolitical healing.  Unfortunately most Christians here just do not understand this and these issues are overshadowed by some very crafty political bait and switch tactics.  I think Christians should be political activists just as Jesus was a political activist but mostly in the U.S. large numbers of Christians are on the wrong side of the fight. 

Peter said - There seem to be other issues as well - which in the US are to do with the way a biblical faith relates to civic and political responsibilities. There seems to be something of a debate taking place - between those who feel that Christians should unite with any sympathetic groups around key moral issues for change (the ‘religious right’ phenomenon?), and those who feel the opposite - that the key is for the power of the state to be rolled back, and private, alternative organs take on the provision of education, social care etc (ie the church provides as much it can for the social well-being of the nation - and its own people - as possible).

I think in this statement incorrectly states the positions in the debate.  It is difficult to explain because the right and the left in our country tend to flip flop on certain issues that you would think could be seen as counter to their views.

Re: The view from over here to 'over there'

Thanks danutz. The two views referred to in the paragraph you highlight are both right-wing, conservative evangelical positions - so the field of discussion should include those who want, in line with the US constitution, to keep church and state separate (and should also include your own views, of course). The downside of the constitutional position (which is no doubt the primary ‘official’ position in the US today, and part of America’s mythology) is that certain areas of public life can become deemed ‘off-limits’ for the church, and therefore Christian believers. Religion can be relegated to the private, personal realm of life (what you do at home or in your spare time), while the public, political realm is left to the ‘non-religious’ sphere. Should not faith have a bearing on the whole of one’s life, as the Dominonists/Reconstructionists are arguing? One of the strands (there seem to be a few) is for a return to a pre-constitutional arrangement, picking up the politics of the reformers, with Farrel/Calvin’s Geneva in their sights.

The twist in the current ‘established’ position seems to be that politicians routinely make use of their faith to gain political support, promoting a sense of a ‘Christian’ political establishment, and may be influenced politically by their faith in less than helpful ways (fundamentalist bible study groups on the ‘end times’ in the White House?). There is also the overarching sense, held by many Christians, of the US having a unique destiny in God’s purposes for the world - ‘In God we trust’, ‘One nation under God’ etc (civic religion?). It seems to be held with almost the certainty of a myth (a bit like the ‘American dream’), and of course, has huge potential for good as well as ill, the latter especially, if it is felt that God’s purposes are achieved by being imposed violently. 

But I’m inviting in-put into these perceptions - bearing in mind too that when America sneezes, England catches a cold. Also, I’d particularly like to know: are Dominionism and Christian Reconstruction anything other than fringe movements in the US today, or are they on a rising tide?

By the way, the source of modern Dominionism/Christian Redconstruction, is R.J. Rushdoony (not Dunroony), and the website is that of the Chalcedon Foundation - www.chalcedon.edu . Take a look at the article ‘What went wrong with the religious right’ by Gary North - for an even more extreme right wing view!

Just for anyone who is interested, K.Gentry’s ‘Before Jerusalem Fell’ is significant for any incorporation of AD 70 into an eschatological framework. If the events and persecutions of Revelation are associated with a late date, then the prophetic significance of AD 70 as an eschatological turning point is hugely diminished. Gentry makes the most compelling case in modern times for a Revelation written in the time of Nero (ie leading up to AD 70) as opposed to Domitian. The detail of some of the prophetic events and timetabling suggests a more literal interpretation with a Neronic date in view: eg the 42 months of Revelation 11 correponds almost to the day with the official engagement of imperial forces in the Jewish campaign (Feb AD 67) to the fall of Jerusalem (early Sept AD 70). The persecution of Christians under Nero began in the latter part of AD 64; Nero died in June AD 68 - (Revelation 12-13 - 1260 days/ the perescution of ‘the beast’ - 42 months).

Also, in Revelation 9:5,10 a period of five months’ demonically inspired torment is referred to (the fifth trumpet). Josephus refers to the sub-human behaviour of the besieged inhabitants of Jerusalem during the siege (Wars 5.10:2,5; 13:6). The siege of the city under Titus lasted exactly five months. I’m not particularly a literalist when it comes to Revelation, but the time-frame correspondences suggested by Gentry are interesting. (These are just tasters for the book - which you should read, after COSM of course).

Re: The view from over here to 'over there'

Peter, thanks for clarifying that.  It read as if you were attempted to state both sides and you stated 2 elements of one side instead. 

As far as revelation is concerned, isn’t it more productive to try and evaluate what the author intended to be the subject of revelation instead of trying to decide if/when the dream has been fulfilled?  It seems obvious to me that the author is speaking about his current state of oppression (rome). That is just what people do.  But it doesn’t matter if that dream is fulfilled in AD70 or AD3000.  The dream is an statement about the fears and hopes about the outcome of their current political situation.  I don’t understand the fixation that literalists place on "telling the future".  What drives you to think that revelation or any other prophetic poem is "divine future telling" v. a political warning about what may happen based on the current (then) political structure.

My point is that the problem you speak of about the U.S. and its fixation on futurist eschatology is not solved by shifting its focus to a different eschatological conclusion.  The once and for all answer to the problem is droping eschatology all together and coming to a new understanding of what "prophetic" writing really is about.  If we see these things as warnings rather than divine predictions all the problems go away because we are no longer fixated on waiting for God to make them happen and we begin doing what Jesus commanded which is acting based on those warnings and changing the world (introducing the kingdom) so that those outcomes are avoided.

The old testament prophets are great examples. Try reading any of their texts in this context of warning rather than predicting.  You see very quickly that their highly political message is stronger when viewed this way and any problems of interpretation vanish.  The book of Amos has wonderful insight for us because he speaks from the viewpoint of a prophet warning about the dangers of Israel(the temple) becoming an empire itself and that is similar to our situation living in a society that seems to be "on God’s side" (some people think that) but is quickly becoming no different than any other empire.  For example, when OT prophets cry out for a messiah, they are not predicting that a messiah will come (or in the NT "come again").  They are HOPING and praying that a messiah will come (or come again) and solve their problems.  Prophetic writings are prayers of hope and/or statements of warning.

In this light we see the bible is a highly anit-imperialistic document from start to finish.  What do we do as people living in history’s latest and possibly most powerful empire?  Will we allow our system of faith to be preverted and used as an excuse for building a stronger empire or will we see our faith as a path to bring about Jesus’ hope for a future of peace and justice?

Prophecy and politics

This will appear somewhat tangential to the conversation, but I have a feeling that it illustrates i) a problem that we encounter all the time - the tendency to polarize solutions between a crude literalism and a spiritually disaffected realism; and ii) the potential to describe an emergent (I use that term deliberately) middle ground that may appear authentically and realistically biblical.

What drives you to think that revelation or any other prophetic poem is “divine future telling” v. a political warning about what may happen based on the current (then) political structure[?]

I’m not sure these need to seen as mutually exclusive options. Jesus presumably looked at the political-religious quagmire that Israel had got itself into and saw the likelihood that sooner or later things would come to a head, the Jews would attempt something foolish, and war would ensue, leading to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. The distinction between warning and prediction under these circumstances is not a sharp one.

But Jesus would have brought two other factors to this calculation. First, he was bound to interpret this state of affairs against the background of a theology of covenant commitment, with its entailments of judgment and restoration, and of actual precedents of realized prophetic warning. Secondly, he would have been highly conscious of his own relationship to God - his sense of dependency and trust as a son to a father - and of how potentially he would embody in himself the fate of his disciples. In other words, the political hope is delimited, but it is also grounded in a narrative about the people of God that culminates in Jesus’ sharp critique of Israel (the many on a broad path leading to destruction) and his confidence that God would bring about a decisive renewal.

Or to put it the other way round, when someone like John tells this story consciously to particular communities within a particular political-religious context, I don’t think it is so odd that he should extend that telling into the future and describe, as I think he does, judgment on Jerusalem and Rome and the vindication of those who suffer. He prophesies because he is compelled to prophesy by the conjunction of narrative and context. To my mind, at least, this is very different to what you appear to mean by ‘divine future telling’; and I really don’t see how it compromises the anti-imperialist thrust - it is an anti-imperialist God who reveals the future victory of the weak, marginalized and persecuted church over Rome.

Re: The view from over here to 'over there'

Peter wrote:

I’m inviting in-put into these perceptions - bearing in mind too that when America sneezes, England catches a cold. Also, I’d particularly like to know: are Dominionism and Christian Reconstruction anything other than fringe movements in the US today, or are they on a rising tide?

It is for the reason of offering my "perceptions" that I enter this discussion.  As I understand these things, the style of " Dominionism and Christian Reconstruction" perpetrated by Gary North and those of his ilk, is a fringe movement in the US today.  That being said there is, however, a grass roots ” Dominionism and Christian Reconstruction" movement that is gaining momentum in this country (US) that I think is much more practical and potentially valuable.

In the opinion of this movement the Bible does present a certain view of Christian Dominionism and Constructionism, but it is not nearly so radically right wing as that of the Gary Northites.  We hold that faith should have a bearing on the whole of one’s life, as the Dominonists/Reconstructionists are arguing.  However our view is one that is more in line with that of our "founding fathers" especially on the question of the relationship between church and state.

Of which Peter wrote:

"so the field of discussion should include those who want, in line with the US constitution, to keep church and state separate (and should also include your own views, of course)."

Peter, as an American whose roots in this country go back to the 17th century, it appears to me that you have an improper understanding of our Constitution.  The fact is that our Constitution does not provide for the kind of "church and state separation" that you seem to understand.

The separation in our Constitution is a "one way separation" - i.e.  by Constitutional authority the US Congress is prohibited from the establishment of religion and interfering with the free exercise thereof, BUT (and this is very important) the church is in no way limited in its participation in the civil politic as a free exercise of their religion.  Our current unconstitutional Supreme Court and its minions are doing their best to rewrite our constitution from the bench and remove and forever bar those of faith from the civil politic.  Admittedly much of this is caused, in part at least, by the secular humanists perception of Christianity which has been seriously degraded during the past 100 years as a result of the introduction of Dispensationalism (Christian Zionism) and the strangle hold it currently has on American Christianity.

The view which you seem to set forth is an unconstitional view that has been pressed upon us through judicial fiat (legislating from the bench) by a run away, unconstitutional, tyrannical court system which we Americans are in the process of changing.

Unfortunately for our country, during the past 100 years or so, the false system of Dispensationalist eschatology has gained a strangle hold on most of the Christians in our country.  This system could also be called Christian Zionism and has been and continues to be a huge detriment to our country.  It could be said the type of " Dominionism and Christian Reconstruction" promoted by the Northites is an extreme over reaction to the problems that Christian Zionism has created in the US and elsewhere.

While the Northite view is an extreme conservative over reaction to the ravages of Christian Zionism, it also seems that Danutz’s view is an extreme liberal over reaction to the ravages of Christian Zionism and is equally as disturbing, at least to this writer.

Apparently Danutz would have us believe that we can "productively…evaluate the author’s (of Revelation) …intended subject" as opposed to his stated subject.  Danutz then writes "It seems obvious to me that the author is speaking about his current state of oppression (rome)….The dream is an statement about the fears and hopes about the outcome of their current political situation."  What seems so "obvious" to danutz is not at all obvious to other students of the Bible.

Revelation, properly understood,  is not about so much about Rome as the oppressors but rather it is about Rome as the avengers (Rom 12:19, 13:1-4) taking vengeance on those apostate Jews which had been persecutors (Rev 1:9; Acts 8:1ff) and "accusers of the brethren" (Rev 12:10; cf. Rev 1:9; Acts 22:30, 23:28, 26:7; et al.)

John directly declares that the document we call Revelation is "the Revelation of Jesus Christ’s" kingdom which "God gave unto Him" (Rev 1:1) and the Revelation of Jesus as "King of kings and Lord of lords" (Rev 19:16) within that kingdom.  This kingdom commences as the result of resurrection (1Cor 15:23) and Jesus "must reign until He has subdued all His enemies" 1Cor 15:25, 28).

According to the NT the coming of this kingdom was fiercely contested by the apostate Jews through out the period from ca. 33 AD through ca. 66 AD.  A fierce battle raged over the question of - who are the true Children of God?

Revelation accurately predicts the out come of the fierce battle and shows that the followers of Jesus Christ are vindicated as the true "Children of God" and apostate Judaism is "cast out" of the covenantal relationship which they previously had with God (Matt 21:43; Rev 12:10; et al.) and are subsequently destroyed because of their harlotry (Rev 17:1; 16-18; et al).

While Danutz is properly perplexed by the problem of the U.S. and its fixation on futurist eschatology; his metaphorical approach, if followed to its logical conclusion, will produce an even deeper and more problematic abyss than the one created by Christian Zionism.

In my opinion, Danutz is wrong when he states, "the problem you speak of about the U.S. and its fixation on futurist eschatology is not solved by shifting its focus to a different eschatological conclusion," but he almost got it right when he stated, "The once and for all answer to the problem is dropping eschatology all together and coming to a new understanding of what "prophetic" writing really is about."

However, the problem is not "eschatology" as he suggests, but it is "futurist eschatology" and the answer is not "dropping eschatology all together" but coming to a proper understanding of the NT’s eschatology and thus arriving at a full and proper "understanding of what ‘prophetic’ writing" was really all about.

If one does not know the specifics of what Revelation is all about, it will be impossible to make a proper secondary application of principles therein to current or new conditions as Danutz struggles to do by his nearly total metaphoric interpretation of Holy writ.

Re: The view from over here to 'over there'

I agree with your better explanation of revelation in light of BOTH forces that are in play (rome and the temple).  I was attempting to refocus the attention from our future back to the latter 1st century and didn’t pay enough attention to exactly where I directed the focus.

Re: The view from over here to 'over there'

Peter, a little background on my own work prior to my response.  My research interests are in American public Christianity, which I mean to be the way in which Christianity plays out in the public sphere.  American Civil Religion is a big part of this.  So is Christian influence on public policy, especially foreign policy.  I have been doing heavy reading on the civil religion aspect for almost a year now and am currently in a 6 member research team studying dispensationalist influence on US/Israel foreign policy.

Before I get to what I really want to say, I will say this about what I know of Dominionism theology in the US: there isn’t much, at least not in the forms you mention.  At best it is a fringe movement and perhaps a good example is this group. "Most" Christians still believe America to be a Chistian nation or, at least, to have been divinely inspired.  This can take the form of rabid patriotism (i.e.: jingoism with a religious twist) or simply a more "tame" reading of the country as one in another long line of empires that will be judged if it denies the authority and takes for granted the blessings of God (I have studied several Independent Fundamentalist Baptist publications and have found this latter view prevalent). 

I wonder, in regard to the difference between religious practice in the UK and the US, if an economic reading is appropriate.  What I mean by that is that our First Amendment could be read as a "deregulation of the religious market" in which such deregulation would result, in capitalist theory, in an increase in religious competition and a general "increase" in the religious economy.  After all, we do currently have 23,000 denominations in this system. The UK, of course, has establishment of religion: religion is controlled, funded, and marginalized by the state (at least that is what I see from here).  Here, well, here we have lassaiz-faire religion to be quite honest. [I am getting close to what it feels like to be a Christian in the US from my perspective.]

I am currently reading the religious writings of our 3rd president who is widely considered as the "author of the US," Thomas Jefferson.  He, of course, authored our Declaration of Independence with its seven (?) references to a Divine Being as the base authority of liberty (here, sociologist Robert Bellah makes the case of the birth of civil religion in our political documents).  He also was a prime author of the Constitution — the only legally binding document of the two — with its *zero* references to a Divine Being.  That’s the preface.  But what gives?

Jefferson, turns out, was Unitarian in theology.  He was (this is for Danutz!) the first of the American Liberal theologians, predating the height of the movement by 120 or so years.  His own view of Christianity was one that should seem quite familiar to us all: the church (to include some of the writers of the NT such as Paul) has really f-d up Christianity and made a mockery of its founder.  He, of course, was brazen and intelligent enough to do something about it.  So, in 1803, during his first term and with some spare time on his hands, he sat down — IN THE WHITEHOUSE — and starting chopping up the Synoptics with a pair of scissors, taking out everything that did not include references to Jesus being divine, any miracles ("against the laws of nature") and any signs of the resurrection.  Then he pasted these "pure" snippets of "true religion" on pages which he bound.  It’s called "The Jefferson Bible" and in his version, it only contains 13 chapters (you can see a table of included here).  He did one version with only Jesus sayings (which we don’t have) and the current version that we do have with Jesus’ sayings and actions.  The latter he had printed up and passed around to his cabinet.  Also, in 1904, the US Congress had it printed up and passed around to each Congresman.

Why bother?  It especially offends the senses considering this was the man of the "disestablishment clause" who also said that religion was a private matter, politics public and that "it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my bones" whether my neighbor believes in God or not.  So what gives?

Like Rousseau, Jefferson believed there were three things that provided social cohesion, social order (the "Jefferson Creed"), quoting:

1. That there is one only God and He all perfect,

2. That there is a future state of rewards and punishments,

3. That to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself is the sum of religion.

You can have a solid society, says the American creator, if you have these basic elements.  The important part: He also happened to consider these the central doctrines of Jesus, the "diamonds in the dunghill" of Christianity.  He even had the audacity to say that he was the only kind of Christian ever intended by Jesus: one who followed his teachings (sometimes he called himself a "denomination of one").

Charles B. Sanford in The Religious Life of Thomas Jefferson states that:

Jefferson was guided by his beliefs about what constituted good religion and true Christianity.  His belief in a God of justice ruling humanity through the moral law and in the importance of the following the ethical teachings of Christ in the larger affairs of the nations was at the root of his concern over the evils of war and the excesses of the French Revolution. — p. 133 (emphasis mine)

So much for disestablishment.  At least in how we think about it today.  I’m not even sure we all could agree that a man who rejects the orthodox teachings on salvation, to cite one of many possible theological complaints, was really a Christian or not, but *his* religion — the firstfruits of American theological liberalism — was considered by him (the author of the Declaration, the Constitution, and the First Amendment) ended up shaping his thoughts about social order and human liberty.  This was the birthday of American Civil Religion, this is the inhaling prior to the big sneeze that you referred to, and I hope to prove it in a paper in one of my classes this semester.

But more broadly I hope it sheds a bit of light on your questions about the vitality of American Christianity and civil religion.  I haven’t bothered to tell you anything about what I am studying on dispensationalism and Israel, but I think I will hold off unless you ask (if you haven’t already nodded off).

Re: The view from over here to 'over there'

Thanks Makaden - and yes, I would be interested in you research into dispensational influence on US/Israel foreign policy, if it proves possible to separate speculation from fact (about the influence of dispensationalism that is - not the substance of the theology itself). Thanks too for your observations on Dominionism and Christian Reconstruction.

The disestablishment of religion in the US is not, to my mind, a bad thing at all; what intrigues me are the secondary consequences unique to the US, eg banning of prayers in schools, and yet a much greater recourse to some Christian practices than we have here: eg prayer breakfasts attended by president and senior government figures, access to the president by senior Christian evangelical figures, frequent reference to God, frequent mention of prayer, by the president, and something of a national myth that the republican party is the party of Christianity.

This kind of association of politics with the Christian faith has been fairly absent from British politics - and probably because Christianity does not have the same popular profile as in the US. However, at voting time, each party leader will suddenly develop an interest in the Christian faith, its practitioners in particular, as they court the Christian vote - which says something about the reappearance of the Christian faith as an active player in national life here. And on the whole, senior Christian figures have done a good job in obtaining the approval of the political establishment, the church being recognised as a huge army of volunteers who provide a large array of informal social services, and who tend to make up a large part of the nation’s employed social services also. 

 

Re: The view from over here to 'over there'

It’s really quite fascinating to hear your take on the UK, as an insider.  Lord knows, I already get most of what can be called news (i.e.: not pseudo-propaganda) about my own country from your papers (i.e.: the Guardian, the Independent).

The potential renewal of Christianity in the UK that you allude to and the potential for being a player on the political stage, these fascinate me.  What is the "mood" of this renewal?  Is it simply a sister movement to a more conservative turning of the populace that we see in so many other places?  Or how would you characterize it?  

I won’t get to dispensationalism & Israel today because I have some pressing reading to do.  But soon.  And, yes, it won’t include an explication of dispensationalist theology (which I am sure you are familiar with) but will include "the facts" of what we know of the political clout of this movement, historical and present, both within the US and in Israel proper.

I have enjoyed the dialogue thus far. 

Re: The view from over here to 'over there'

From the point of view of this site, the ‘renewal’ of Christianity on the UK national scene is something of a paradox as well as a phenomenon. ‘Renewal’ is a word associated with a movement with its roots back in the 1960’s, which led to a massive church-planting boom in the 1970’s/80’s when ‘renewed’ folk were being shown the door in their orthodox evangelical churches for speaking in tongues etc.

Yet during the 1980’s/90’s, the areas which had been pioneered by the ‘renewal’ people, often outside the mainline churches, were taken on board big-time by the mainline, evangelical churches - which became partakers in a surge of growth. Now, many of the large churches in the UK (anything over 500 people) are Anglican churches. Baptist and Pentecostal not far behind. The main ‘new’ player on the scene is the New Frontiers network of ‘new’ churches, but there are others. Even the Salvation Army is waking up from its Rip Van Winkle slumber. Other denominations are in rapid decline: Methodist, United Reformed Church (an amalgamation of English Presbyterian churches and others) etc. Rural Anglicanism is often in big trouble.

The Alpha Course movement has also fuelled church growth - around a whole culture of church. So evangelicalism is riding high, and it has accompanied a surge of social action and political involvement type movements. Around 70-80 members of our parliament network with the Bible Society, which has also come out of its 19th century closet and is right in there in contemporary cultural expression, along with Care, Oasis, Shaftesbury, and other evangelical organisations working with the grain of contemporary culture (and often across it). There are moments when it is hip and cool to be perceived as an MP to be a Christian, or associated with Christians.

At the same, some misgivings have been expressed about the optimism, and what the new mood is producing. These were expressed as long ago as Dave Tomlinson’s "The Post-Evangelical" (1997 or earlier?) The book seemed heretical at the time, but was questioning some of the handed-down  notions of evangelical theology and practice, and was concerned about an evangelical sub-culture which seemed to be emerging, paralleling contemporary culture, immersing and hiding its members within itself.

Since then more searching questions have been asked about the nature of the culture in which the church is operating, and whether the church itself isn’t representing an older culture which is becoming outmoded and outdated - incapable of reaching culture as it was becoming. Hence the concerns of this site.

Also, it has to be said that while there is growth in some areas of the church, overall the statistics are disturbing, with general decline still evident. It’s just that the churches which are doing well seem to be making a rather larger impact in many ways than their predecessors.

That’s my summary in a nutshell. There is still hostility to the Christian faith in many aspects of our society - local government, prejudice against Christianity in favour of other religions, hostility in the media - newspapers, television - where the hostility tends to be intellectual, or expressed by ridicule (eg Jerry Springer - The Opera). But overall, Christianity has come out of its closet, and has come into the present age - and continues to do so. The Anglican church is very often the body that is setting the pace - in theology, ecclesiology and active missiology.

Re: The view from over here to 'over there'

Thanks for the great information about Jefferson. I had heard that story before but you gave me some new insights.  It is no wonder that our nation has such a wonderful framework.  I thank God that Jefferson had this understanding of God.  I can only imagine how horrible our framework would have been if he had been a biblical literalist and dispensationalist.  My guess is that we would be a 3rd world country by now without this important framework in place.

One of the things that sticks out to me in that story is that we realize that Jefferson (as well as the leadership in Europe during the canonization of our scriptures) understood that one of the key components of religion is to provide social cohesion/order through beliefs.  That includes making sure we include beliefs in reward/punishment of behavior.  It is critical to order in societies where the majority of people are uneducated.

I’ve not read Jefferson’s "bible", but I can recommend a similar attempt to reframe the gospels by Leo Tolstoy called "The Gospel in Brief".  It is a wonderful book that combines the stories of Jesus from all 4 gospels and delivers them in a package that highlights Jesus’ emphasis on non-violence and compassion for the poor.

Makaden, did you somehow see a problem with Jefferson or are you just concerned about the preceived disparity in those issues?  I wonder why you included him here when he provides such a clear and powerful example of how a more appropriate (sorry for assuming my view is appropriate) non-literal interpretation of the bible can "literally" change the world.  I get the sense in your posts that you would not consider Jefferson or myself a Christian even though we are/were passionate about following Christ.  Do you suggest that being "Christian" means believing in one particular theological doctrine over another?

Re: The view from over here to 'over there'

I speak usually as 65% descriptive sociologist of religion, 35% normative Christian lay-theologian.  I understand from time to time that this is difficult to pick out in my readings (and difficult for me, often, to know myself!).

My descriptions of Jefferson were simply to show that neither the Christian right nor the secular left have been very near an understanding of the founding of the country as they would have liked.  The secular left says the founders were all deists, i.e.: therefore they held to a "hands-off" Christianity that radically separated public and private, and the Christian right tries to portray the founders "made in their own image" and who would have been appalled at the way Christians are "treated" (i.e.: "marginalized") in this country.  My contention is that, yes, Jefferson was a self-described deist (which, by the term, he meant a strong monotheism and a non-warlike God), but that the ethics of Jesus made their way into our founding documents.  And Jefferson was at war with the Christian right of his day, often making them out to be not just inferior citizens, but not even real Christians (as they did to him!).

I am fascinated about how the ethics of Jesus have, however impartially, made their way into our founding documents (although the interpretation of these documents, the Jeffersonian view, eventually lost out to the Madisonian view!).  I think this is wonderful, and full of potential.  But I am also certain that to stake a claim (with intentions for philosophical war looming on the horizon) as to "Jesus is in our founding documents according to the secret principle of Jefferson, see ‘we’ are right!" is to singularly miss the point.  Jefferson interpreted Jesus in his own, Enlightenment context, for his own, Enlightenment intention.  He wanted to make Christianity into something that "would not offend the sensibilities of the modern man."  His opponents, Calvinists, Puritans, Edwardsian evangelicals, all did the same.  Jesus was — and is — a battle ground in this country, and he is, as Richard Fox calls him in Jesus in America, a national obsession.  We all remake him in our own image everytime we choose to encounter him.  I do, you do, we all do.

There are plenty of "Christian raw materials" in this country to work with for an emergent philosophy of Christianity.  Yet these materials can be built for evil or for good (just as nuclear technology could have been used to produce energy or bombs), for establishing orthodoxy or for being a platform for generous orthodoxy.  The most wonderful thing about emergent that I find is that it insists, sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, on examing the agendas for Jesus that we have.  We "turn the gaze" of our hermeneutic of suspicion, not on the scriptures, but on ourselves (this is the "postmodern" in us, I suspect).  Those with *hard* agendas are suspect, always, of having been again captured into a contingent cultural milieu and proceed without knowing/acknowledging it.  That’s really powerful, and a strong dose of humility for a traditionally over-muscular Christianity.

As for whether you or Jefferson are a Christian, to raise such a question is not my intention.  I was drawing a narrative of Jefferson as both someone far outside of mainstream orthodoxy but who was nearly obsessed with Jesus (not ever "Christ", because that would make him some kind of savior, someone beyond "great sage").  We will do with that what we will.  To go further than what I have outlined here would be to miss my point entirely.

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