How context contextualizes the language of hell

The thread on the jealousy of God has again raised a number of important questions about how we construct the context within which we endeavour to interpret the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. It is not enough simply to acknowledge that the texts we tend to cite in order to support our arguments come with literary contexts. There is also the question of how we interpret that context. It is at this level, it seems to me, that the fundamental misunderstandings arise.

Consider, for example, danutz’s antithesis between the ‘Jesus that taught an inclusive message which directed all attention toward loving God and our neighbors’ and the ‘Jesus of exclusive institutionalized Christianity that has become the object of twisted idolization’. Apart from the evident prejudice against institutionalized Christianity, I would suggest that this is indicative of a failure to read Jesus within the narrative of first century Judaism. The interpretive framework is instead a more abstract and frankly ‘liberal’ moral opposition between inclusion and exclusion, between personal freedom and institutional repression, etc.

On the other hand, we have kingJames1’s more traditional and ‘orthodox’ projection of Jesus’ apocalyptic language on to a universal screen:

Certainly, we must understand “Jesus’ many teachings (including those concerning ‘hell’) in the proper context of his mission to Israel, and the narrative of God’s plan for the world.”  It is precisely in this context that Jesus’  teachings about ‘where the worm never dies’ take on such significance and are so disturbing.  Jesus condemned not only those who rejected the gospel during the course of His own earthly ministry…, but also spoke of hell in the context of the mission of his disciples, both in regard to themselves in their faithfulness to Christ in the face of persecution (one should fear Him who has the power to kill the body and authority to cast into hell) and obedience to His commands (better to cut off the right hand, then have the whole body thrown in the fires of hell), but also those who reject the message of the kingdom coming (the seed of the so-called kingdom-parables) preached by the apostles. 

I would ask two questions here. First, What is this ‘proper context’? And secondly, How does this context contextualize the teaching?

The argument put forward by kingjames1 is that Jesus not only taught a doctrine of hell but also transmitted that doctrine to his disciples and the apostles of the early church. In other words, the thought of hell gets passed on from the particular context of Jesus’ mission to Israel to the universal context of ‘the narrative of God’s plan for the world’.

This involves cutting a rather long story short, but I would argue strongly that the language of destruction, gehenna, exclusion, etc., in the Gospels refers to the horrifying ‘judgment’ of the Jewish War in AD 66-70. (There’s a recent podcast interview with Brian McLaren that touches on these themes on Bleeding Purple Podcast.) This narrative framework takes Jesus’ language of devastation and exclusion very seriously - we cannot take danutz’s route of simply filtering it out in the interests of a theology of grace. But the narrative also in some respect must be allowed to confine it, restrict the scope of application - he is speaking about a particular state of affairs; and we must think much more carefully about whether and how we extrapolate from this language to a universal doctrine of ‘hell’.

The enemy by which Israel is judged will not itself escape judgment. The historical-eschatological narrative takes us beyond the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple: the New Testament also envisages the overthrow of Rome insofar as it constituted an implacable enemy of YHWH and his anointed one. This accounts for another part of what is traditionally understood as the doctrine of ‘hell’, but it still operates within narrative constraints that cannot simply be ignored by a dogmatic theology.

This is not to say that we do not find the language of universal judgment in the New Testament. But I do think that in this matter both Reformed theology and Liberal theology need to pay much closer attention to how context contextualizes statements that are made.

There is then a further question to consider. If the New Testament language of judgment is contextualized by the narrative about the experience of the people of God in the first centuries, how is it contextualized by the narrative about the experience of the people of God in a postmodern, post-Christendom society? The answer to this very complex question must take account of the particular and actual state of the church in the West today, which is not the same as the church in the New Testament period, as it engages missionally with the world, which is not the same as the world of the New Testament period.

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Re: How context contextualizes the language of hell

The argument put forward by kingjames1 is that Jesus not only taught a doctrine of hell but also transmitted that doctrine to his disciples and the apostles of the early church. In other words, the thought of hell gets passed on from the particular context of Jesus’ mission to Israel to the universal context of ‘the narrative of God’s plan for the world’.

It would seem so, judging from Paul’s language of fire and everlasting punishment against those “who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus”, concomitant with the Lord’s coming “with his powerful angels” (2Th.1:7-10; cf. Mt.13:40-42), and the ‘lake of fire’, from which “the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever,” (Rev.14:11) in John’s Apocalypse - the second death, which is the terrible destiny of those whose “name is not found written in the book of life” at the last judgment in chapter 20. 

But more importantly to your question, I wonder if you are not over-determining the ‘contextualization’ of Jesus’ words in confining them to his historic mission to Israel, thereby delimiting the ‘theological context’ of his preaching/teaching both geo-politically and eschatologically.  We should bear in mind that Jesus’ central message of the coming kingdom (his theological context) was eschatological in the fullest sense of that term.  Its implications were by no means restricted to the borders of first-century Palestine.  Rather, the coming Kingdom was univeral in implication, indeed, cosmic.  One cannot, it seems to me, divorce his teachings regarding the immediate implications for his original, Jewish audience of the coming judgment and blessings of God’s reign from their implications for human history in toto.  We see from the kingdom-parables, for example, that the kingdom of God has a reality that is both present in Jesus’ mission (Mt.13:10-15, 18ff., 32, 34-35, 37, 44-45 - the kingdom is apparently small, insignificant, hidden, the word of which is ‘scattered’ by the Son of Man in his earthly ministry) to Israel in particular (Mt.15:24; 10:6), and for the whole world (13:38; cf. 8:12; 15:26-28), both now (cf. 21:28-45; 22:1-13) and extending on to the end of history (13:39-43, 49-50; cf. 25:31-46).  Certainly we can distinguish his teachings regarding, say, the destruction of the Temple in AD 70 (see esp. Lk.21:5-24) as the tragic downfall of Jerusalem, for which Jesus wept (Lk.19:41-44; cf. Mt.23:37-38) and the future, eschatological judgment “when the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him” and the “cursed [depart] into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” and the “righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46; cf. 16:27). But we must understand both within the overarching theological context of the kingdom as the in-breaking of God’s reign in Jesus Christ, with profound (eternal) implications for judgment and blessing (both in his first advent and second). 

More specifically, our Lord’s language of ‘their worm does not die, the fire is not quenched” (Mk.9:48) is taken from Isaiah 66:24 - the last verse of the book in fact, in which the eschatological horizon entails “the new heavens and the new earth”, in which “all mankind will come and bow down before me.”  In other words, if Jesus intentionally refered to Isaiah’s apocalyptic vision in his language concerning ‘gehenna’ (which he no doubt did), then it seems unwarranted to restrict the meaning/application of such language to only his historic mission in Palestine and the judgment in AD 70 (as though these events exhausted the prophetic significance of Isaiah’s visions).  It seems our ‘hermeneutical horizon’ must go well beyond the first century, even as the Olivet Discourse itself does (referring both to the imminent judgment against Jerusalem and to the Last Day, e.g., Mt.24:30-31). 

Your thoughts?

Re: How context contextualizes the language of hell

VIPs - very interesting points. 

I guess one of my questions here would be, how should we interpret Jesus’ words in the Gospels relative to Paul’s writings, John’s writings, etc.?  Do we evaluate what Christ said in light of the other NT books, or is it the other way around?  Or a combination of both, or something else I’m missing entirely?I don’t see any reason to believe that Jesus’ description of the last judgement as an "eternal fire" is meant to be taken any more literally than His description of the kingdom of God as a "mustard seed" or a "coin"… but that makes me wonder all the more what Paul and the other authors might have been thinking when they wrote what they did — and how those writings should be viewed in light of what Christ said (on this and other matters too).  If Christ wasn’t speaking literally, and Paul was, where does the priority fall for our understanding of Scripture?Not really connected to the eschatalogical direction your post was going, I suppose, but that’s what it brought up in my mind.

 

Re: How context contextualizes the language of hell

What frames what?  That’s the question.  The rule of faith, the rule of analogy, that Scripture interprets Scripture is a wise (and biblical) principle of interpretation.  Of course, there is a direction in redemptive history, a process (and progress) of revelation: the prophets interpret and unfold the Law of Moses, applying the Sinaitic covenant in all its implications to the ‘vassal’ nation, and the apostles interpret the Gospel of Jesus Christ, applying the new covenant realities to the new community of God’s people.  Yet, we cannot rightly understand the Prophets without the Pentateuch (a friend of mine once said that Deuteronomy is the ‘systematic theology’ of Israel’s prophets),  nor can the apostles (and the apostolic kerygma) be rightly understood apart from the ‘gospel’ of Jesus Christ, His life and teachings, death, and resurrection, which God in His wisdom has preserved for us in the form a four-fold Gospel.

So, sometimes Jesus frames John.  Sometimes Peter frames Paul.  Sometimes Jude frames Jesus!  And vice versa.  But, if we understand the apostolic office as was ordained by Jesus, it seems unwise to pit one against the other, to force an either/or in the case of an apparent tension (e.g., the common confusion of pitting Paul against Jesus in 1Cor.7:10-12 in many interpretations).  Rather than pick and choose, I think constructive theology seeks a ‘frame’ that comprehends all aspects of our scriptures harmoniously.  This, I think, is the way forward toward a theology that is both creative and faithful.  

Regarding Jesus’ teachings about ‘gehenna’, I think all agree that his language is metaphorical (i.e., Jesus was not refering to a literal valley of perpetual fire outside of Jerusalem).  And so his audience would have understood it.  To quote from wikipedia (i know, an autoritative source), "Jesus used the word gehenna …and his audience understood quite well that gehenna meant a place of condemnation, for in contemporary Jewish belief "gehenna" was a term for a transcendent (or subterranean) place of eternal punishment."  Thus Jesus appealed to the ‘mythology’ of his audience in his teachings about divine judgment (as does Peter, in refering to the Greek concept of Tartarus in 2 Peter 2:4, which was essentially identical to the Hebrew concept of Gehenna).

  I would not then compare such metaphor to the parabolic language of ‘mustard seed’, ‘coin’, etc.  In parables there is an element of allegory, in which certain aspects of the kingdom or the Son of Man are likened to common objects or practices that would have been familiar to Jesus’ hearers.  The language concerning hell however is not itself parabolic.  He uses this language in non-parabolic discourses (e.g., Matthew 23:33).  In fact, Jesus employs the language of eternal judgment and fire in interpreting his parable of the wheat and the tares for the disciples in ‘plain terms’ they would understand (Matthew 13:41-42). 

So, it would seem that Paul and Jesus, or John and Jesus, all employing metaphors of fire (whether flames descending from heaven or pooled in lakes), spoke of an eternal judgment that awaited those who disobey the gospel of the kingdom.  The language of torment (gnashing of teeth, etc.) is also ‘metaphorical’; yet it seems clear that the reality of real torment is meant to be thus conveyed to Jesus’ audience. 

Ugghh.  Maybe we should get the hell off this topic! 

What contextualizes Jesus’ teachings of eternal life and reclining at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven?   

I believe in a literal gehenna

Regarding Jesus’ teachings about ‘gehenna’, I think all agree that his language is metaphorical (i.e., Jesus was not refering to a literal valley of perpetual fire outside of Jerusalem).

Actually, I don’t agree that his language is metaphorical. When Jeremiah describes ‘the dead bodies of this people’ piling up in the Valley of Hinnom (= Gehenna), he is not speaking metaphorically - he is describing the consequences of military action against Jerusalem as a consequence of the evil which Israel had done (Jer. 7:31-34). Jesus certainly foresaw a similar catastrophe for Jerusalem - why then should he not be using the same language in the same way? Because of the wickedness which Israel persisted in doing, the bodies of the dead - killed by the Romans or by starvation and disease - would lie burning the valley of Hinnom.

In Mark 9:48 Jesus adds an allusion to Isaiah 66:24, which concludes a prophetic account of the restoration of Israel following judgment and the defeat of Israel’s enemies. The point of the image is that those who survive this devastating day of the Lord will look upon the bodies of those who rebelled against YHWH (the dead rotting outside the walls of Jerusalem) with abhorrence.

Here the language of new heaven and new earth is used as a metaphor for restoration. Whereas in John’s vision of a new creation there is no more death (Rev. 21:4), Isaiah only promises that ‘the child shall die a hundred years old’ (65:20). I don’t think you can conclude from this that when Jesus uses the same image he is speaking of a universal judgment. Notice also that the dead are simply dead - they have suffered at the hands of their enemies but now they are only corpses. You cannot torment a corpse.

Re: How context contextualizes the language of hell

One quick tangential thought… simply because this topic intrigues me…

Does the language of torment necessarily refer to those being tormented?  Following the line of thought that says Gehenna is a place for dead bodies of criminals, etc, could it be that the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is not coming from those who are in the fire, but those who are outside the fire weeping for those they have lost?  Just pondering…I’ll have to think more about the context of Jesus’ teachings on eternal life before responding…

Wailing and gnashing of teeth

My suggestion (COSM 90-91) is that the phrase ‘wailing and gnashing of teeth’ combines two Old Testament ideas - ‘wailing’ evokes Israel’s suffering under divine punishment (cf. Micah 7:4), whereas typically the wicked gnash their teeth against the righteous (eg. Psalm 37:12). The linguistic association is fairly clear in the Septuagint. If this is correct, then both the wailing and the gnashing of teeth come from those who suffer divine punishment (understood not metaphysically but historically), but have slightly different connotations.

Re: Wailing and gnashing of teeth

I liked the story I once heard about a fire-and-brimstone street preacher. He was just winding up to the climax of his peroration by painting a lurid picture of hell’s torments, which he capped with the words: "And there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth", when a voice came back from the crowd: "But I haven’t got any teeth!". Quick as a flash, the preacher responded: "Teeth will be provided!"

I hope this isn’t trivialising a very serious and important discussion.

Jesus' interpretation of the parable of the weeds of the field

There’s a lot here to respond to. Rather than attempt to address every point, it might help to suggest a representative reading of Matthew 13:36-43, to which you refer a couple of times, which will illustrate how Daniel’s vision of the Son of man is used to interpret the particular historical-eschatological crisis facing Israel in the first century.

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.

The Son of man is the one who will suffer righteously at the hands of the Gentiles. He sows the ‘word of the kingdom’: he announces that God is going to bring about a fundamental transformation in the fortunes of Israel through the suffering of his anointed one. The oppressor of Israel will be overthrown, destroyed, as the fourth beast is destroyed in Daniel 7:11, and the kingdom will be given to the suffering saints of the Most High (Dan. 7:14, 18).

38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil.

The field is the world not so much because Jesus is thinking universally rather than restricting his teaching to Israel, but because the ‘world’ is the sphere in which the oppressor of Israel operates, the satanically inspired beast who in Daniel’s vision makes war against the righteous. The good seed are those (possibly including Gentiles in Jesus’ understanding) who remain loyal to YHWH; the weeds are those within the people of God who wittingly or unwittingly collaborate with the enemy of Israel (cf. Dan. 11:32).

The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The ‘harvest at the close of the age’ is the war that will bring an end to second temple Judaism, leaving the renewed Spirit-filled community of Jesus’ disciples, bound together by the new covenant in his blood, united in the one who suffered on their behalf, to be a people for God’s own possession in the world.

43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

The allusion here is to Daniel 12:3: ‘And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.’ Following the period of trouble that will be both judgment and deliverance for Israel, the righteous will be raised, vindicated, honoured. Daniel has in mind something like the Maccabean crisis in the second century BC; Jesus takes the vision over and applies it to the analogous crisis that Israel faced in the first century AD.

parousia : vindication and, or bodily resurrection?

Following the period of trouble that will be both judgment and deliverance for Israel, the righteous will be raised, vindicated, honoured.

In your book, Andrew, you implied that the first resurrection was literal - if I understood you correctly - and was limited, as you set out here, to those who particularly suffered, in like manner to the Son of Man, during the particular eschatological crisis of Jerusalem etc.

In the quote above the wording could be interpreted more figuratively - would you clarify? Was the "first resurrection" in your eschatological matrix literal? And, if so, was it witnessed and were there accounts of it, albeit shadowy, like the one (I seem to remember) which appears in one of the gospels?

Thank you.

shalom! - john

Re: parousia : vindication and, or bodily resurrection?

That’s a very good question. The ‘first resurrection’ of those who die as Christ died must, I think, be understood as a real vindication and a real victory over death: I would see it as having the same status as Christ’s own resurrection, except that it was presumably not witnessed. I rather think Matthew 27:52-53 might share the same background of thought, but it applies to the ‘saints’ (an allusion to Daniel’s vision?), the righteous, who suffered and died before this point.

I suppose, though, that one might also see the possibility of a metaphorical interpretation in that not all the ‘righteous’ who suffered during the eschatological transition did so to the point of death. In a sense all those who share in the life and experience of the messianic community share in the sufferings of the messiah (cf. 2 Cor. 1:3-7) and consequently in his vindication, exaltation and enthronement. The resurrection motif in the Old Testament emerges as a metaphor for the renewal of Israel following judgment (cf. Hos. 6:1-2).

The distinction between the living and the dead at the parousia (the moment of vindication) also occupies Paul in 1 Thess. 4:13-18. The whole community, as one body in Christ, suffers persecution and must in some sense participate in the vindication. I suggested in the book that Paul’s narrative here reflects (no doubt by way of interpretive tradition) a distinction in Daniel 12 between those who are raised and those who are ‘saved’ or ‘lifted up’ (COSM 164-165).

Re: Jesus' interpretation of the parable of the weeds of the fie

Hi andrew,

This is a very clever approach.  However, I find no warrant to understand Jesus’ interpretation of this parable in Matthew 13 so strictly in terms of Daniel’s apocalyptic propheices in chapter 7, 9, and 12.  Moreover, I would differ from you on a number places concerning the interpretation of Daniel.  In your interpretation, the vision of God’s Kingdom in Daniel 7 has apparently been fulfilled in toto at the close of AD 70, whereas I would lean more toward a now/not yet understanding of an inaugurated eschatology, leaving room for a yet future fulfillment or consummation in terms of the coming kingdom in Daniel’s vision.  E.g., I do not see Jesus’ oft-repeated reference to the Son of Man coming on the clouds of glory from Daniel’s vision to have been fulfilled (i.e., exhausted) in the ascension recorded in Acts 1. Neither, apparently, did John (cf. Rev.1:7)

Perhaps the most problematic aspect of your take is reducing Daniel’s reference to the resurrection of the (righteous) dead in chapter 12, referred to by Jesus here and elsewhere (e.g., Lk.14:14) to the survival of a ‘remnant’ from AD 70.  Or so this is how I understand your comment, "Daniel has in mind something like the Maccabean crisis in the second century BC; Jesus takes the vision over and applies it to the analogous crisis that Israel faced in the first century AD."  Apart from Christ, the frist-fruits, were the dead "in Christ" raised in the first century?  This seems quite fantastic, historically speaking.

Perhaps it could be argued that such a crises as occured in the first century adumbrates and anticipates the great eschatological crises, the ‘great tribulation’ Jesus refers to in Matthew 24 (as most commentators throughout the years have understood it).  But certainly Jesus here means more than Titus’ destruction of the Temple in the first century.  Jesus clearly saw a future resurrection, to which he here refers in the parable, as a terminus to the present age (13:39), as did the apostle Paul (1Co.15:23-24).  The whole point of this parable, as I read it, is that the kingdom-age will co-exist with the prsent evil age, until the end, when Christ will have "abolished all rule, authority and power" (1Co.15:24; cf. Dan.2:34-36, 24-25; 7:13, 22, 27), the last of which is death (1Co.15:26; realized in the resurrection of the saints, 1Co.15:54-55; cf. Dan.12:2-3).   

And correspondingly weak, in my view, is understanding the judgment involving the angels harvesting the sons of the kingdom to the fleeing of the ‘righteous’ Jews from Jerusalem (cf. Lk.21:20-22) and the destruction of the ‘sons of the evil one’ within the walls of first century Jerusalem.  This simply does not cohere with the similar reference in the Olivet Discourse in Mt.24:30-31, in which the coming of the Son of Man is a public event witnessed by "all the tribes of the earth" (unlike the ascension recorded by Luke), flashing like lightening from one end of heaven to the other (24:27), such that His coming would be undeniable (contrary to the claims of false christs, 24:24-26).   

The world, represented by the field, is best understood, not as the sphere of the fourth beast’s operation and domain, as much as the sphere of the gospel’s operation.  That is to say, it is better understood in the immediate context of chapter 13, as opposed to (the vision of the four beasts in) Daniel 7.  The first parable, the sower, as most commentators agree, frames the entire series of kingdom-parables to come.  The seed is the gospel or word of the kingdom (the mystery revealed in Christ’s present coming and ministry, Mt.13:11-17, 52).  The seed finds various responses (in ‘four soils’).  Similarly, the sower (the Son of Man) sows seed in the field, which is the world, wherein it produces a good crop (those responsive to the gospel, cf. Mk.4:26-29).  During the planting season, an enemy (the devil) adds tares (‘sons of the evil one’).  Yet the response is not to pull up the tares prior to the harvest (otherwise the sons of the kingdom would be damaged if not destroyed together with the weeding out of the evil ones, v.29).  Such a separation (judgment) awaits the end of the age, when the sons of the kingdom will be ‘harvested’ at the resurrection (the full fruition of the harvest, of which Christ is the ‘first fruits’) and the tares gathered for the furnace. 

The focus then is the response to the gospel-seed and the inauguaration of the new age, signified in the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom (cf. Mt.11:12-13; Lk.16:16). To delimit this to the first century judgment against Jerusalem (as though this demarcated ‘the end of the age’) seems both unwarranted from the Gospels and from the writings of the apostles.

Would you likewise delimit the eschatological table of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to the survival of a remnant from Rome’s destruction of Jerusalem?  Have we received the kingdom in full, shining as the sun?  I’m sure the original audience of the Apocalypse (suffering persecution and even martyrdom) would very much disagree with this assessment.         

Re: Jesus' interpretation of the parable of the weeds of the fie

Thank you for engaging so closely in this. I will try to answer most of the points that you make, but I’m sure it will leave a lot of questions unanswered.

It’s difficult to establish a fully persuasive warrant for the ‘Son of man’ reading on the basis of just one text - we have to take into account a quite extensive argument about the significance of this motif for the development of New Testament eschatology; it is as much an argument from coherence as from piecemeal exegesis. But the fact that the figure at the centre of Jesus’ interpretation of the parable is the ‘Son of man’ and the allusion to Daniel 12:3 in verse 43 certainly point in this direction. Whether this means that the passage must be understood ‘strictly’ in terms of Daniel’s vision depends on what you mean by ‘strictly’. We should allow for the fact, on the one hand, that Daniel’s vision is not used entirely ‘strictly’ (because it originally referred to different circumstances and has in some measure been reapplied) and, on the other, that other ideas and imagery have shaped the parable and its interpretation.

I do not think that in the New Testament as a whole the ‘Son of man’ vision is reapplied only to the events of AD 70. In fact, arguably this is aspect secondary. Daniel’s vision at its heart concerns the defeat of the pagan oppressor and the giving of the kingdom to the Son of man figure. There is a secondary theme in the apocalyptic narrative that describes Jewish apostasy and collaboration with the oppressing force, which culminates in devastation for Jerusalem: so there is, first, judgment on sinful Israel and, secondly, judgment on the oppressor. The coming of the Son of man on the clouds of heaven is fulfilled not in the ascension (though the ascension might be said to anticipate it as a prophetic act) but in the destruction of the satanic opposition to the people of God and the giving of ‘dominion and glory and kingdom’ to them. However, it does seem to me that Jesus’ perspective on the future is for the most part limited to the fate of Israel - ie. to the eschatological horizon of AD 70.

You could keep open the option of a future consummation of the kingdom, but I don’t think that’s how the New Testament sees things. The language of the kingdom, I would suggest, has to do quite concretely with whether Caesar or YHWH was king over the covenant people. Once the kingdom was given to the Son of man to reign on behalf of YHWH, we are no longer in a situation in which we are waiting for the kingdom still to come. God reigns over his people through the Son of man who through his (and their) suffering overcame death and satan and was vindicated. The ‘now and not yet’ argument would have made sense at a time when the church was longing for deliverance from its persecutors in the first centuries, but we have moved beyond that. What we wait for now is not the coming of the kingdom but the renewal of creation - these are distinct themes.

Apart from Christ, the first-fruits, were the dead “in Christ” raised in the first century?  This seems quite fantastic, historically speaking.

Why fantastic? There is no reason to think that their ‘resurrection’ was exactly like Christ’s - the reemergence of the physical body from the tomb followed by an ascension (though Matt. 27:52-53 is interesting). It would amount to much the same thing as going to heaven when we die - or Paul’s ‘going to be with Christ’. Although ‘resurrection’ is in principle a bodily event, it is dependent on, it anticipates, the eventual renewal of creation. Until that point those raised with Christ are with him in heaven at the right hand of the Father.

I disagree that Matthew 24 describes an end-of-the-world tribulation, but the arguments are too complex to embark upon here. Likewise the interpretation of the passages that you list from 1 Corinthians 15. These passages are dealt with at length in The Coming of the Son of Man. Sorry.

This simply does not cohere with the similar reference in the Olivet Discourse in Mt.24:30-31, in which the coming of the Son of Man is a public event witnessed by “all the tribes of the earth”…

The sequence of events seems quite coherent to me: judgment on Jerusalem and the temple, the migration of believers throughout the Roman world, and the growing recognition among the tribes of the earth that all authority in heaven and earth has been invested in the Son of man. All nations will ‘see’, in effect, what Daniel ‘saw’ - the prophetic symbolism of the human figure coming on the clouds of heaven to the throne of the ancient of days, corresponding in the real world to liberation of the true people of God from oppression and their vindication before the eyes of all peoples. The point of the lightning metaphor, I would suggest, is not that this will be undeniable but that it won’t be localized: the true messiah will not be vindicated through localized political or military action, as false saviours hoped to be, but through the revelation of what God has done through the one who was crucified by the Gentiles.

Yes, I think that when the New Testament speaks about the end of the age or about an age to come, it is speaking about the transition from second temple Judaism under judgment to the age of the renewed people of God under Christ as lord, filled with the Spirit of God, no longer under the concrete, political consequences of God’s wrath. In general terms, this transition cannot be pinned down to a single historical moment (Pentecost, or AD 70, or the collapse of Roman imperialism). It entails the whole process. But in any particular context (Matthew 13, for example, or Jesus’ statement about these things happening within a generation) one or other aspect of this process might be in view.

Would you likewise delimit the eschatological table of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to the survival of a remnant from Rome’s destruction of Jerusalem?  Have we received the kingdom in full, shining as the sun?  I’m sure the original audience of the Apocalypse (suffering persecution and even martyrdom) would very much disagree with this assessment.

Jesus says in Matthew 8:11-12: ’ many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness.’ I would read this against the backdrop of the transition I have just described - foreigners will become part of the renewed covenant people, while many descendants of Abraham according to the flesh will be excluded. It is not about heaven, it is about who will be included in the covenant people.

Christ and those who suffered in him (including the original audience of Revelation) have received the kingdom - they reign at the right hand of God. As I have already said, we should not restrict this to AD 70 - the crisis of the end of the age stretched beyond AD 70. As the early believers moved beyond Palestine, they inevitably foresaw conflict with a very powerful paganism. It is following the overthrow of Babylon the great that it becomes possible to proclaim that ‘the Lord our God the Almighty reigns’ (Rev. 19:6). From the perspective of the New Testament that is the kingdom ‘in full’. God has defeated the supreme spiritual and political enemy of his people and now reigns. In a way, that is all that needs to be said about the kingdom - now we need to get on with the task of being a people over whom God is king.

Re: Jesus' interpretation of the parable of the weeds of the fie

Hi Andrew,

Regarding the apocalyptic-prophecy of Daniel as ‘contextualizing’ the parable of the wheat and tares, you write: "But the fact that the figure at the centre of Jesus’ interpretation of the parable is the ‘Son of man’ and the allusion to Daniel 12:3 in verse 43 certainly point in this direction."

Perhaps.  But not necessarily.  As you no doubt well know, "son of man" is Jesus’ favorite self-designation, and as such is employed in many varied contexts.  In fact, he employs the title in ways that clearly go beyond Daniel’s usage, even ways contrary to the exalted imagery of chapter 7 (e.g., Matthew 8:20; 17:12, 22; 20:18; 26:2, 24, 45).  In fact, Jesus appears to integrate the messianic-apocalyptic imagery of Daniel with the mysterious ‘suffering servant’ of Isaiah (Matthew 20:28).  So we cannot confine his usage and understanding of the title to Daniel’s heavenly man. 

Regarding the reference to Daniel 12:3, ‘allusion’ is the right word (Jesus’ words are only vaguely similiar to Dan.12:3 LXX - in fact, Paul’s statement about the Philippians shining ‘as stars in the universe’ in 2:15 is a closer parallel).  With most commentators, I understand the point of this allusion to refer to the resurrection in the latter days (Daniel 12:2), which Jesus mentions elsewhere (e.g., Luke 14:14; 20:35-36; cf. John 5:28-29).  The point of fact here is thet Daniel 12:2-3 is the clearest and most direct OT testimony to a future resurrection of the dead (both the righteous and the wicked).  Jesus’ reference then to Daniel’s language in chapter 12 is to the ‘end of the days’, in which all the dead, including Daniel himself, will be raised to receive their ‘alotted inheritance’ (12:13) [which btw seems highly problematic for your approach of ‘historicizing’ the eschaton within the circumference of AD 70].    

You write, "The language of the kingdom, I would suggest, has to do quite concretely with whether Caesar or YHWH was king over the covenant people. Once the kingdom was given to the Son of man to reign on behalf of YHWH, we are no longer in a situation in which we are waiting for the kingdom still to come."

Wha?  I guess I would refer to 1Co.15:23ff., but apparently another author has ‘dealt’ with this text.  Nevertheless, Paul says the ‘end’ will come after the resurrection of Christ’s ‘own’, at which time the kingdom will be handed over to the Father. To suggest this resurrection happened in ‘some sense’ is to ignore the entire context of chapter 15, which is an involved argument for the corporality of the future resurrection.  Ironically, the ‘historicization’ of the NT eschatology here denies the concreteness and physicalty of the future resurrection. 

When then did Jesus ‘drink of the fruit of the vine’ with his disciples in his Father’s kingdom?  When did the son of Man establish twelve thrones for the twelve apostles to judge the twelve tribes of Israel?  And as far as the coming of the son of man appearing as lightening, flashing from one end of the heavens to other being applied to the mission of the church (preaching the gospel to the nations post-AD 70), what can I say?  This defies any grammatico-historical, contextual exegesis of Matthew 24:27.  The reference is clearly to the appearance of the Son of Man, contrasted with the false appearances of pseudo-messiahs. How then can the spread of the gospel (over a period of decades, even centuries) be reconciled to the words of Jesus here?  I deduce from your interpretation of chapter 24, that all this talk of angels gathering the elect, the tribes of the earth mourning in response to the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory is all mythological, and is to be ‘demythologized’, de-eschatologicalized, and reduced to an historical moment.  Such a radical re-reading of the texts not only contradicts the historic understanding of God’s people, but would have been (understandably) mystifying to Jesus’ original audience (for whom such language was understood in accordance with Jewish acopalyptic with its trans-historical eschatology). Moreoever, it is clear that the apostles did not understand the ‘coming of the Son of Man’ in this manner (see 1Thess.4:13-5:10, which according to your interpretation would be irrelevant for, or at least quite misapplied to Gentile Christians living in Macedonia). 

"God reigns over his people through the Son of man who through his (and their) suffering overcame death and satan and was vindicated."  

When have the martyred saints been vindicated by God in history?  Apparently not in any spiritualized resurrection of ‘going to be with the Lord’ (see Rev.6:9-11).  Or do you believe martyrdom of the saints has ceased?

"The ‘now and not yet’ argument would have made sense at a time when the church was longing for deliverance from its persecutors in the first centuries, but we have moved beyond that."

Really.  May I suggest that such a view could only come from a modern Western perspective, isolated from the rest of the world.  Does the persecuted church today figure in at all? 

"What we wait for now is not the coming of the kingdom but the renewal of creation - these are distinct themes."

Distinct perhaps, but not separate.  In fact, John ties them closely together in Revelation 20-22, in which the final judgment, the coming of the New Jerusalem from heaven to earth (the full restoration of ‘the kingdom to Israel’, as John’s numerous references to the prophets in these chapters would indicate) in the sphere of the new heavens and the new earth.  Cf. Jesus’ comments to the disciples in Matthew 19:28 ("at the regeneration") and Luke 22:30 ("in My Kingdom").  Cf. Peter’s comments about the new heavens and new earth as our promised ‘home of righteousness’, in light of which we are to be diligent in our faith (2Peter 3:13-14) and the kingdom we are to (yet) receive through the same diligence (2Peter 1:10-11).  

Contra the realized eschatology of Dodd (which your view seems to approximate) I would recommend Ridderbos’ "The Coming of the Kingdom".     

Re: Jesus' interpretation of the parable of the weeds of the fie

Jesus appears to integrate the messianic-apocalyptic imagery of Daniel with the mysterious ‘suffering servant’ of Isaiah…

But it is precisely in this respect that Jesus’ self-designation as ‘Son of man’ does not go beyond Daniel’s vision in the night - the Son of man who is glorified represents the saints of the Most High against whom the little horn makes war (7:21, 25). The drama in Daniel 7 entails both suffering and vindication, which is why Jesus so often uses the title when he is talking about his own foreseen suffering. He is the one who, on behalf of Israel, will bear the brunt of Gentile hostility believing that he will be vindicated by God. What Isaiah 53 adds is the thought that the suffering of the one can have atoning significance for the many.

No doubt there is an echo of Daniel 12:3 in Philippians 2:15, but is it really closer? Paul has phōstÄ“res rather than asteres, and more importantly he is talking about the living rather than those who are resurrected following judgment. In any case, this hardly detracts from the significance of Jesus’ allusion.

The limited resurrection (‘many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth’) of Daniel 12:2-3 is directly linked (‘At that time…’: 12:1) to the political-religious crisis provoked by Antiochus Epiphanes (11:29-45) which would conclude the extended period (70 weeks of years: 9:24) of God’s wrath against Israel - Israel’s continuing exile. Resurrection, therefore, has to do with the vindication of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked as an outcome of this crisis. (I don’t see a particular problem with the fact that this vindication will include the righteous from earlier periods, including Daniel himself.) My argument, then, is that Jesus understood this application but developed and reapplied it to the more severe crisis that Israel faced in the first century AD. Those who would suffer on account of their loyalty to God would be vindicated; the wicked would be punished.

Ironically, the ‘historicization’ of the NT eschatology here denies the concreteness and physicalty of the future resurrection.

Yes, because this is a resurrection in advance of the renewal of creation that will provide the necessary physical environment for the resurrected body. The raised and vindicated ‘saints of the Most High’ reign in heaven just as the raised and vindicated Jesus reigns in heaven. There is no denial of the ‘concreteness and physicality of the future resurrection’ - it is rather a postponement. In The Coming of the Son of Man I argue that the resurrection of those who belong to Christ, those community of the suffering Son of man, does not coincide with the ‘end’ when the kingdom given to the Son of man is handed back to the Father and the last enemy is destroyed (1 Cor. 15:23-26; see COSM 169-172).

When then did Jesus ‘drink of the fruit of the vine’ with his disciples in his Father’s kingdom? When did the son of Man establish twelve thrones for the twelve apostles to judge the twelve tribes of Israel?

These are symbols for the participation of the suffering saints in Christ’s vindication. John has the same scenario in mind when he speaks of the martyrs of Roman persecution coming to life and reigning with Christ a thousand years (Rev. 20:4).

How we interpret the image of the lightning depends to a large extent on how we interpret the ‘coming of the Son of man’. I don’t think that Jesus is describing a coming from heaven to earth; I think he has in mind Daniel’s vision of a human figure approaching the throne of God to receive a kingdom, which is going to be ‘seen’ in a very different way. This is what the disciples should look for and trust in - not one of the many false messiahs who (as Josephus confirms) led Israel astray during the period leading up to the war and during the war itself.

It also depends on how we interpret prophetic and apocalyptic language. Whatever we may make of Jewish apocalypticism generally, I am not so sure that Old Testament apocalyptic presents a ‘trans-historical eschatology’. There are plenty of examples in the prophets of cosmic and mythological imagery being used to foretell historical events. Why shouldn’t Jesus have done the same? Why is it such a ‘radical re-reading’ to hear in Jesus’ teaching the imagery and idioms and thought-forms of Old Testament prophecy? Why shouldn’t he have spoken about things that mattered immensely to his disciples and the pariah communities that would gather around them?

Or do you believe martyrdom of the saints has ceased?

No, of course, not. But when you look into the future from where Jesus and the authors of the New Testament stood, what you see is the particular decisive conflict with Roman imperialism - and I think that in order to understand the language of New Testament eschatology we need to share that limited perspective and get a sense of just how critical that conflict was perceived to be. I would suggest that what the ‘modern Western perspective’ characteristically seeks to do is universalize the limited, contingent outlook of the New Testament. What we fail to take seriously is the identity and integrity of the people for whom these texts were actually, expressly written.

I disagree that the coming of the New Jerusalem from heaven to earth corresponds to the restoration of the kingdom to Israel. Some potential for confusion, however, arises because new creation language, like resurrection language, emerges initially as a metaphor for the renewal of Israel. By the time we get to Revelation 21 it has become a more literal hope: this is a new creation in which there is no more wickedness and no more death. That cannot be said of the renewed people of God. Peter is clearly waiting for a transformation of things that will impact both the suffering communities to which he writes and their enemies - we should not diminish the sense of urgency and imminence in these statements. I would suggest that he is using the image of new creation in much the same way that it is used in Isaiah 65:17 to describe the historical renewal of Israel.

This discussion is getting very detailed. I hope we are not boring everyone.

Re: Jesus' interpretation of the parable of the weeds of the fie

Hi Andrew,

I agree with you, the discussion has become detailed, but also scattered.  Perhaps we should leave certain issues aside and focus on a few matters that have been raised.

You and I disagree fundamentally on the eschatology of the NT and OT.  I hold to what might be called a realistic eschatology, which, understanding the symbolic and metaphoric language of apocalyptic literature and the ‘mystique’ of its genre, accordingly reads the texts ‘literally’ (i.e., according to the literature).  So, when Daniel 12:2-3 speaks of the resurrection of the dead in those days (i.e, the last days, "the end of time" 12:4), he means a literal, physical resurrection (not merely a vindication, in some sense, of the saints).  And so it was understood by Jesus’ contemporaries (with the exception of the Sadduccess, who apparently did not accept the writings of the Prophets as authoritative, see Matt.22:23; Ac.23:8).  

Moreover, it seems evident by Jesus’ application of Daniel 9 in Matthew 24 et al., (let the reader understand) that Antiochus Epiphanes is the not the final horizon of Daniel’s visions (i.e., Jesus not merely re-applying Daniel’s language to a different scenario, but unpacking Daniel’s mysterious prophecy in chapter 9 for his audience).  Rather, the abomination of desolation extends beyond Antiochus and his desecration against the holy of holies, even beyond AD 70 (Lk.21:20ff.) in which Rome similarly desecrated the holy place (as the language of ‘wrapping up’ the eternal purposes of God for His people in Dan.9:24 would seem to suggest), to the time of this ‘man of lawlessness’ of whom Paul speaks to the Thessalonians (2Thessalonians 2:1-4) and the beast(s) of Revelation (written well after Jerusalem’s destruction), for which Daniel 7, and 2 provide the theological background (and not in imagery only).  In a word, I would argue that ‘apocalyptic’ embraces both historical events (divinely wrought events within history), but also eschatological events, in which God’s kingdom irrupts into history, guiding the political and spiritual forces of the world toward His divine goal, culminating in the great and terrible day of the Lord, the end of history (which is no mere metaphor for ‘a dramatic change within human history’).  Thus, as do the prophets of Israel, I would distinguish the eschaton from history.  Certainly the eschaton is seen to overlap with history (‘the latter days’ of history), as Jesus’ teachings on the inaugurated kingdom would suggest.  Yet history and eschatology are distinct realities or ages in the progress of redemption.

You, however, hold to what might be called an historical eschatology, by which I mean an eschatological horizon bounded within history, and first century history in particular.  Such langauge as employed by the prophets, the apostles, and Jesus himself cannot but be mere dramatic metaphor for historical events, as you understand it (except, oddly, the language of the new heavens and new earth, in which case you become a realist it would appear).  However, such a reading does not appear to be supported by the OT, the Apocrypha, or the NT documents (and NT pseudopigrapha). 

For example, consider the lofty language in the Psalms and Prophets regarding the exodus and wilderness wanderings.  Grandiose?  Yes.  Earth-shattering, cosmic?  Indeed.   Historical events?  Certainly.  Truly miraculous, supernatural phenomena that transcended the natural course of history?  If we accept Scripture’s own testimony, we have to conclude ‘yes’.  Or were the cloud and pillar of fire mere symbols?  Certainly the rabbis did not think so.  The earth-shaking metaphors and ‘proto-apocalyptic’ imagery were employed precisely because the nature of the events demanded such language.  Perhaps Israel’s ritualistic and poetic remembrance of the exodus and wilderness wandering really was the womb of the apocalyptic genre.  Such events ‘transcended’ the relatively mundane prose of ancient historiagraphy, demanding a new genre. (BTW, the tendency to universalize the kingdom (the domain and sovereignty) of the covenant God of Israel is not a Western phenomenon, but an ancient near eastern one, see for example Isaiah 40:6-41:7; 45; 49; or Mal.1:5, 11).

So I would affirm that your non-realist reading of eschatology is a radical interpretation, departing from the general ‘hermeneutic’ of the typical ‘second temple’ reader.  Compare for example your historicized eschatology to the strongly apocalyptic (i.e., supernatural, end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it) eschatology of the Essenes, or any piece of intertestamental apocalyptic literature.  Or compare your delimitation of eschatology to the destruction of Herod’s temple to the early rabbinical commentaries on Daniel, Zechariah, etc., or compare to post-AD 70 Jewish apocalyptic works (e.g., 4Ezra).  It is significant that in these works the future Messiah(s) was still execpted to come as a real, supernatural person to save Israel from her enemies and establish her as the head of the nations. (Certainly AD 70 was not seen to accomplish this - your interpretation would certainly baffle the rabbis). Thus messianic expectations and apocalyptic forms are intertwined, and it is consequently difficult to reduce one to the realm of colorful, poetic historiography (even sacred historigraphy) without so reducing the other as well.  

 But what about the understanding of the early church? Compare you interpretation of Revelation 20, for example, to the earliest known understanding in the early chruch (e.g., Papias’, and according to his disciple’s testimony, Polycarp’s premillennialism).  Did the second and third generation community really so quickly and profoundly misread the first?  More importantly, did they so radically misunderstand this genre, which stands much closer to their cultural milieu than ours.

How did the apostles read their Lord?  I mentioned in my previous post 1Thessalonians.  It seems clear that they too saw "the coming of the Son of Man" as the Day of the Lord, that last day, when history would be drawn to an end, and the final judgment of mankind would be accomplished.   

Lastly, you write "By the time we get to Revelation 21 it has become a more literal hope: this is a new creation in which there is no more wickedness and no more death. That cannot be said of the renewed people of God."  I would disagree.  It is precisely in the matrix of God’s covenant promises to Abraham, His covenant with Israel and David that the realization of this cosmic renewal and restoration are unfolded.  Israel’s history is the world’s; and the nations are spectators to God’s covenant dealings with his elect nation (e.g., Amos 3:9-10), and thereby drawn into the redemption of Abraham and his descendents (Ro.15:8-12), such that, through him, all the nations of the earth are blessed and renewed.  This is the gospel (Gal.3:8).  Israel will be restored at the regeneration of all things (cf. Ac.3:19-21; 1:6; Mt.19:28), and the nations with her (Ro.11:11-12; cf. Ac.15:15-18). 

Perhaps we should start a new thread on biblical eschatology and the coming kingdom, or something to that effect?

Re: Jesus' interpretation of the parable of the weeds of the fie

I find it very helpful to step back and recognize that there are fundamental hermeneutical differences underlying the exegetical disagreements. I am also fully aware of the fact that the sort of reading I am proposing diverges significantly from traditional readings of New Testament eschatology. I would stress that my intention is not at all to diminish the authority of scripture or even to demythologize it against its will but simply to understand it better. This is not something I do on my own. I read as part of a community, and the larger and more diverse that community, the better.

There are some odd ironies in your second paragraph - at least to my way of looking at things. I would also claim to hold to a ‘realistic eschatology’ - but realistic in the sense that I seek to understand how eschatological texts emerge from, refer to and describe the real historical experiences of the believing community. I would argue for a ‘literal’ interpretation of the texts in the sense of ‘according to the literature’. I also think that Daniel has in mind a literal resurrection. And yet we still arrive at rather different conclusions!

I certainly accept that Jesus applies the imagery of Daniel to the desecration of the temple by the Romans, but I would argue that for Paul the man of lawlessness is a figure very much like Nero (or perhaps the emperor in a generic sense) and that this aspect forms part of the same basic vision. I think there are good grounds for thinking that Revelation was written at the time of the Jewish War, but even without that assumption I think it is entirely realistic (and strictly biblical) to suggest that the defeat of the man of lawlessness or the beast is the defeat of Roman imperial hostility towards the people of God. That, in fact, is by no means an exceptional interpretation. I see nothing in your argument that requires an end-of-the-world eschatology.

I agree that supernatural events accompanied the exodus, but New Testament apocalyptic language is for the most part drawn from prophetic descriptions of judgment on Israel (especially the Babylonian invasion and exile) and on Israel’s enemies which do not involve supernatural occurences. The cosmic language appears to denote not merely military defeat but substantial geo-political realignment, perhaps reflecting some sort of belief in heavenly counterparts to earthly powers.

The intertestmental, Essenic and rabbinic texts would have to be looked at closely. I think my response would be, though, that there is very little evidence that New Testament eschatology was influenced by these streams of thought. Almost everything has its source one way or another in the Old Testament. I would go as far as to suggest that it is precisely a hallmark of biblical eschatology that it is very realistic about historical experience.

How the church fathers read the New Testament is a very good question. Again, this is obviously not something that is ever going to have a very strong impact on exegesis of the New Testament. But I would certainly want to consider the possibility that the millennium was important to them for the same reason that it was important to the first generation of believers - it was the period that would follow the overthrow of their enemies, the ending of persecution, and the vindication of those who remained true to their Lord during this period.

It’s fascinating how we appear to have crossed over by the time we get to your reading of Revelation 21. That deserves more thought at some point. For now, many thanks for a very constructive discussion.

[Comment moved to new thread]

[This comment has been moved to a new thread: Prophecy and realism. Appended comments have been transferred with it.]

Re: How context contextualizes the language of hell

Andrew,I agree with you 100% on this point.  I think we can derive the meaning of Jesus in the NT by asking 2 questions: What did the authors (1st century Jewish Christians) want to tell us? Why did they tell it this way?  The answers will be completely in context to the story of Israel.   1st they wanted us to know that Jesus was the answer to God’s promise to deliver Israel (once again) from their oppressors.  In this case the oppressor was the Roman Empire.  2nd they told the stories this way because they were building a religion.  They were building a proof text for their idea that Jesus was the solution to their problem and I agree that he was in fact that solution.  I like the fact that you are willing to acknowledge the fall of the Roman Empire as fulfillment of that promise or at least the beginning of that fulfillment.  I haven’t read your book yet, but I get the idea that this is the basic premise (fyi, it’s on order from amazon but they say 4-6 weeks for delivery to the states).

The bible seems to me to be a series of mini-stories that all have the same 3 part theme to their metaphors.  Promise, obstacle, and fulfillment are the parts to that theme.  We also see this theme if we look at the bible in totality as one big metaphor for the nation of Israel.  If we don’t try to take the stories, poems, myths, parables, and dreams of the bible so literally they all line up and become more “true” from a metaphorical standpoint.  The truth is that Israel (we?) are hopelessly separated from God but he gives us a promise of reconciliation and he has and/or will fulfill that promise.

Of course it wouldn’t be any fun to just accept the overall theme. As "thinking people" we need to debate the theologically details.  We will probably have to agree to disagree on those details and which parts are meant as metaphor v. historical truth, but I think in the end we can all rally around the big picture truths and work together on that level.

History and metaphor

Danutz, a couple of thoughts that rather pull in opposite directions…

First, the contextualized, historical reading of the Gospels in particular has given me more, not less, confidence in the essential historicity of the narrative - labelling everything as metaphor seems increasingly an unnecessary hermeneutical strategy. This is not to say that there is no metaphor or myth in it, or that every detail is historically accurate. But the overarching story that is told about Jesus makes such good historical sense - on the one hand, against the backdrop of Jewish beliefs, and on the other, in relation to what we know of Israel’s situation in the first century. What emerges from this is a compelling understanding of Jesus as a powerfully imaginative, creative and courageous figure who, in the Spirit of his Father, forged a unique vocation for himself from the interaction of scripture and history. Anyway, the simple point for me is that contextualization reduces the need for metaphorical or allegorical readings of the texts.

Secondly, however, the emphasis on narrative appears to offer something of a mediatory position between our respective approaches, between the historical and the metaphorical readings, between Wright’s hermeneutic of trust and the search for a meaning that transcends the historical. Arguments about the resurrection aside, how much does it really matter, as we tell the story, whether it is believed as history or believed as metaphor, whether we suppose that it determines our existence diachronically or synchronically? Either way, one might argue, we take it seriously enough to let it shape our existence, our sense of God, our worship, our vocation.

I still wonder why, if we can allow the promise - obstacle - fulfilment pattern to define our real experience of God now, we should want to deny to the community that gave us the New Testament the option of communicating their own real experience of that reality. But should we get so worked up about the fact that for one of us the story feels like history while for the other it feels like metaphor?

Re: History and metaphor

Andrew,

I think you might be creating division where is there is none.  I don’t intend to get worked up when people like yourself need to see every detail of these stories as historical facts.  I would only find that to be a big problem if you took it another step further and insisted that believing those events to be literal history was a requirement for "salvation". 

I am making your same point about defining the context of these stories within their proper setting in the history of Israel and it’s quest for fulfillment of promise. I’m not suggesting that the historical Jesus is ONLY metaphor.  I’m suggesting that the metaphor is the explanation for the unbelievable claims. The historical cry for a messiah is the framework that helped the metaphors of Jesus’ death and resurrection become a part of the story.  I believe that the historical facts and the metaphorical elements are both essential.  This explanation would also apply to the incredible hell languange of the NT. This is no different than the way you explain the events in Revelation with the demise of the roman empire.  The entire Bible is filled with real historical events explained with the grand language of mythology.

Re: How context contextualizes the language of hell

"They were building a proof text for their idea that Jesus was the solution to their problem and I agree that he was in fact that solution."

Now this is a thought that I have been toying with in my mind for quite some time. I hope I make sense with this - I was thinking along the lines of: Jesus made several attempts to provide a progressive path to the religion of his day (Judaism) and failed. His death provided an opportunity to the oppresseed to declare themselves not Jewish, but, followers of Jesus (a Christian) and therefore ‘escape’ oppression of their race.  Based upon this thought I am guessing one could say that Jesus did in fact save those who believed in him - or - people saw an opportunity to save themselves.

Any thoughts?

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