Separation of Church & State

I recently wrote an article for our denominations magazine.  It was an article exploring the separation of church and state.  Because it seems (in America) that those who scream most loudly for a separation are also calling the gov’t to ban abortion, gay marriage, etc.  I’m wondering where the emerging church is going to enter the political conversation, if at all?

My article explored the distinction between God’s holiness and God’s righteousness.  It also made use of the three offices of Israel: prophet, priest and king.  The basic conclusion of the article was to leave it to the gov’t to ensure justice/equality and leave it to the church to form "moral" beings.  It seems to me that a focus on justice allows Christians to have a voice in the political dialogue without being overtly religious.  "Letters to the Editor" quickly labeled me a communist which led me to believe that I didn’t explain myself very well.  But I am a firm believer in capitalism and democracy, even if I think (in America) it has led to severe injustices.

In particular, I wonder about the emerging church’s view of Romans 13:1-7.  Can we still label the governing authorities as "God’s servant" as Paul did?  If so, what does that mean?  How does the state, then, relate to the church?

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Re: Separation of Church & State

The two issues of your post seem to me quite closely connected. It has been suggested that Romans 13:1-7 was written in the context of an ‘over-realised’ eschatology: a church, maybe churches, living as if they were already in the ‘new earth’, and there were no responsibilities at all to the ‘old creation’, with its paraphernalia of government etc.; especially where government was associated with the culture’s paganism and idolatry - as in Romans 1:18-32. Rather than an abstract doctrine of the church’s relationship to the state, perhaps there was a particular context which Paul had in mind.

I think there might be a parallel of sorts with the emerging church. The emphasis on organic, closely knit community is probably a long way from political activism. ‘Friends’ is a long way from ‘West Wing’ (I’ve never seen the latter, but pluck it from the air at random as a possible contrast. Come to think of it, ‘Friends’ is a very outdated example. I just couldn’t find a way of weaving ‘Lost’ in - though so far, it has been disappointingly lacking in anything remotely like a cultural subtext. Not that I’ve been watching it. It’s my daughters who are glued to the screen - street cred at school or something of the like).

But what viewpoint are you taking? I assume the ‘prophet, priest, king’ idea is from Calvin, who, I imagine, because I haven’t studied him, saw a close relationship between church and state. From my perspective, church should always have an uneasy and variable relationship with the state.

To take a US example again, I would incline towards the activism of Jim Wallis and the Sojourners commmunity, rather than the politicised religion of the religious right (if such a thing actually exists). I admired the way they were jailed for breaking the perimeter fences of airforce bases in protest against US overseas military policy - while the rest of the church was (apparently) silent, or even supportive of government policy. No doubt the church should also affirm government when its policies reflect the agenda of God’s kingdom (cancelling third world debt? Climate change policy?). But identify church too closely with the state, and you have public burnings of heretics over fires fuelled with green wood. (Calvin again - not on the bonfire, but sanctioning its use).

But where in the US is there a state church (or do you mean ‘state’ as in all aspects of government-funded institutions, such as schools)? The more worrying issue here might be the assumption that ‘church’, ‘faith’, or ‘religious belief’ plays no part in society outside its own institutions. When looking at the extremism exhibited by some sectors of the church, one can understand why. But otherwise, isn’t this a sorry legacy of the enlightenment, and the secular values given to society by those who framed the US constitution?

 

Re: Separation of Church & State

You are correct with regard to Calvin.  Church and state did have a close relationship.  He gave politicians almost as much regard as he did pastors.  In fact, he was asked to lead reforms in Geneva where he was cooped up for a while.  Like all attempts at reform it led to some good changes (e.g. sewers, education, etc) and some bad.  It became quite close to a theocracy.  It’s this idea that struck me after the 2004 elections; that certain Americans were looking to gov’t to legislate some sort of Christian morality. 

So, my view is not for theocracy and certainly not for the religious extremism that is being called Reconstruction.  At the same time, I would like to think that God has some authority over the secular realms of life.  I, too, appreciate Jim Wallis’ attempts at activism.  I guess my concerns are with what roles government and church should play in society, how they can complement each other, and where to draw the line.  While Reconstructionists would claim Calvin as their "father" in the faith, I don’t think he would appreciate their ends.  He did see the validity in any kind of gov’t as long as it pursued the end of equality.

For me, the line has something to do with justice/equality and holiness/morality.  Again, let the gov’t work on justice and the church call people to make moral decisions.  At the same time, I imagine the church to be a sort of prophet in the land illustrating what justice should look like.  Perhaps you and others can shed some light on what I’m saying and help me clear it up.

Re: Separation of Church & State

This argument goes both ways. Not only has the church attempted to influence the state, but the state has taken over many roles of the church.

It seems to me that both of our major political parties have been successful in manipulating our constitution to the point that we no longer have the seperation of church and state and religious freedom that our founding fathers intended.  The most clear example is that the state has taken over for the church in many areas like education, welfare, social security, and monitoring moral conduct.  Both parties should take blame for this problem. 

I wonder if churches can still reasonably ask for 10% from its members if the government has stepped in and taken much more than 10% to do what the church was intended to do.  You could make a strong argument that paying taxes to a socialist government like the United States actually satisfies much of our tithe responsibility since it basically operates more like a church.  It is no wonder that churches have no sense of mission in our society outside of being a social club, baby sitting service, and entertainment center. 

I would prefer that we had a real seperation of church and state.  The government should stop taking half of our income (add up all your taxes from Federal to local and you will find most of us are paying at or near 50%) and the church should take back its role as caretaker of the poor and guardian of values. 

Re: Separation of Church & State

I’m really interested in the perspected of those in the UK.  Does religion create a strong division in your political arena? 

Danutz http://danutz.blogspot.com

Re: Separation of Church & State

I don’t personally think that biblical Christianity has the right DNA to govern in any real sense. Our faith was shaped around a summons essentially to faithful weakness in the face of opposition and dominant authorities - and above all under the authority of God. We simply do not have the right calling or the right resources or the right ‘mindset’ to govern effectively. Whether or not Caesar was in any way the anti-Christ, Christ was certainly the anti-Caesar. Christian government is bound to fail - which is not the same as saying that Christians cannot have a significant and constructive role in governments.

I’m not sure how the moral formation thing is going to work if left to the church. Christians aren’t going to agree on what constitutes appropriate moral training. There have been some notably bad examples of Christian moral formation in the past. Do we really believe that the church can be trusted to perform this task well? And other sectors of society are going to want to have a hand in shaping morality - humanists, Muslims, Hindus, environmentalists, celebrities, and so on. How in a western democracy are you going to assign moral formation to the church?

I would suggest that there is a prior question to be asked: What is the people of God called to be in the midst of the nations? It seems to me that two requirements are made of us, are definitive for us: i) to be a dwelling place for the living God in the midst of the nations; ii) to anticipate the renewal of humanity and the created order both in what we do and what we point to.

Once we have established this two-fold orientation, we need to ensure that both are deeply embedded in the life and work of the believing community. They have profound and far reaching implications for both our internal and our external relations. But at the centre, from which all things must flow, is always the point where the theological and the eschatological axes cross, where God gives hope, brings about change, reorients the world towards newness and life - and is worshipped and draws the nations to his light.

The phrase ‘in the midst of the nations’, which is recurrent throughout the Old Testament, matched by the dispersal of the New Testament church throughout the Roman empire, suggests presence, visibility, perhaps vulnerability, access, but also apartness, distinctness. I think the emerging church is going back to the New Testament to look for inspiration, but not so much to the church in Jerusalem with its mass conversions, communalism, signs and wonders, more to the church that confronted the political and religious authorities of the Graeco-Roman world.

Re: Separation of Church & State

We should be extremely cautious of throwing out commands from scripture.  So let’s just take a leap and call the U.S. government God’s servant to it’s citizens. Theoretically our gov’t garners its authority from the fact that we submit to the constitution.  No where in the constitution will you find a rule against overlapping roles of church and state.  The first amendment merely prohibits Congress from establishing a state religion.  The preamble states clearly that the purpose of the gov’t is to …establish justice,insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense,promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty…  These are not merely secular ideas.  There is an overlap between the stated purpose of the gov’t and the expression of the church in the community.  As to the responsibility of Christian citizens, since the constitution calls for citizens to actively (if not somewhat indirectly) participate in the formation and functions of gov’t (including the last phrase of the 1st amendment which demands an opportunity for citizens to redress their grievences) it is our obligation to "be political." Doesn’t that seem to correspond to being "subject to the governing authorities."  I don’t know how universal that is since I don’t have any real knowledge of other governments’ constitutions and after all the US is merely a political experiment and a relatively young one at that. I don’t think the constitution should be held in the same regard as scripture.  I do hope that the emerging church as a body and as individuals is more active in the overlapping arenas of politics and social justice.  I may want that because I tend to be more politically and philosophically alligned with the people I would label emergent.

Okay, I better go put my soap box back in the garage and go pick up my kids from school.  

Re: Separation of Church & State

The church-state debate in the UK runs along slightly different lines.  None of our politcal parties have a ‘religious’ affiliation or link in the same way that might be said of the US.  In this way politcians and faith are far more separated.  For example, whilst our Prime Minister is a Christian, he never mentions his faith or attempts to appeal to the Christian community in particular.  Naturally, this is a relief to some and a frustration to others.

The link comes with the Church of England.  This part of the Anglican Communion has as its head the Queen, and even the ‘real’ leader, the Archbishop of Canterbury, is ultimately appointed by politicians.  This leads to a real blurring of the lines when it comes to ceremony etc.

Getting back to the question and earlier comments I think there is a problem with the seeing the church as being responsible for the moral well-bing of the nation.  Like Andrew I see a different calling, which is ultimately to deepen our relationship with God and to allow that relationship to guide our lives.  I think we need to recognise that some of our moral code will not make sense without the love and knowledge of God.  That is not to say that it is not to say that it isn’t the best way to live, but just that you might no ‘get it’ if you are apart from God.

Therefore, I would see no link between church and state, only a Christian-state link.  Thus, I beleive that we should encourage Christians to be active in the political process (and indeed in all (most?) parts of society) so that they can be salt and light to the world.  Their witness can be their example in their conduct rather than their words in their speeches.

One way to sum this up would be to say that I see the Christian calling to be about showing people how to live, rather than telling them.  If we are going to tell people something then let us tell them about God, a job that is certainly not for the state!

Re: Separation of Church & State

First, let me underscore what Paula said:  the US constitution says nothing about a separation of church and state, but does contain a "non establishment clause" forbidding the government from establishing a state-sponsored religion.  "The separation of church and state" is a later Supreme Court trajectory based upon this.

Second, I find it instructive to consider the essential differences between the church and a state.  A church is a voluntary association that transcends social and political boundaries of all kinds.  A State is that entity which enjoys the legitimate right to coerce or initiate force.  I believe that, since people are evil, there needs to be an institution that can, by force, mitigate that evil.  In this sense the State "bears the sword" for God.  I believe this is most legitimate when applied to those who illegitimately use force or fraud against others.

I believe, therefore, that it is absolutely inappropriate for a State to serve the church as such.  Christians as such are not called to wield God’s sword.  However, it is perfectly reasonable for a State and the church to share some concerns—ethical, moral, or otherwise.  The difference is that the church appropriately addresses those concerns with love and persuasion, while the State addresses them with a heavy hand, levying fines and taxes, revoking priviledges, and ultimately imprisoning and executing.

Further, since the State with its monopoly on the legitimate initiation of force risks corruption by that power, it behooves all people, including Christians, to take an active interest in the nature and implementation of the government.

I do not believe it is reasonable for The Church (tm) to be of one mind on every issue, however.  Noble principles come into conflict—for example, freedom vs. equality, or cost vs. benefit, or justice vs. mercy, and the proper balance is not inherently obvious.

In regards to Romans 13, it must be taken alongside the passages that speak of obeying God rather than man.  It does however point to the fact that God has ordained the legitimate right to use force against wickedness, and that Christians should respect that.

Re: Separation of Church & State

Ah…so what of Christians who find themselves in the employ of the sword-wielding state?  And just for fun…does it stand to reason then, that we should always "maintain" a group of secular disciplinarians who will find no conflict of conscience in dealing death?

Re: Separation of Church & State

Christians in the employ of the government should do their best, and work as unto the Lord (just like anyone else).  However, their allegiance to the government should always come second to their allegiance to the Kingdom.  I think this to be particularly problematic for Christians in the military.  I don’t think I could ever let myself be put in that position.  If others can reconcile killing people with their Christianity, that is their decision (Bonhoeffer comes to mind as a Christian who made the difficult decision to use the world’s means to accomplish a laudable end)—but I cannot.

And for those of us who believe that God’s Kingdom will eventually be manifested throughout all creation, it is evident that we look forward to no longer needing a secular government to wield the sword.  It is the pacifist’s dilemma—our existence seems to be predicated upon pacifism’s non-universality (there are non-pacifists fighting for our freedom to be pacifists…).  But then the early Christians didn’t put up a fight when they were thrown to the lions.  Hmm… if Christians release their political influence in the government, will we see an increase in martyrdom?  And would that be good or bad for the Kingdom?  My mind’s kind of all over the place today, I apologize.  But I see the problem you’re raising dotexe…

Cheers,

-Daniel-

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