The Abrahamic promise and the good news of the kingdom
Thanks Hungertruth for helping the discussion along. Your dialogue with Andrew is helping me to grasp what he’s setting out here. Andrew, I apologise in advance if I seem to be coming on a bit strong with what follows. This is a subject I’m passionate about.
I find all this talk of redefinition and reinterpretation a little disturbing. It is God’s covenants which he encourages us to pin our hopes on that we’re talking about here. They are nothing less than oaths that God has sworn.
God spent many thousands of years trying to get a point across to Israel, and through them to the nations. It was this point, his blueprint/logos which was there from the beginning and never altered. Far from changing this, Jesus gave it full expression. He was and is the embodiment of God’s blueprint for creation. His preaching of the gospel of the kingdom was the affirmation of that blueprint.
In that sense, he takes over the mission which Israel failed to fulfill and through his obedience perfectly communicates God’s love and justice to the world. This overlap and transfer between the calling of Messiah and Israel rises to prominence in Isaiah’s servant songs. Jesus has come to be all that Israel was, including the priesthood, temple, law and prophetic revelation. But all this serves to forward God’s purpose for the earth, through the kingdom of Israel, not displace it.
The centrality of the land promise to the Jewish faith in the resurrection of the dead
The Abrahamic covenant (Gen 12:1-3, 7; 13:14-17; 15:4-21; 17:4-16; 22:15-18) emphasised the fact that not only Abraham’s descendants, but Abraham himself would personally inherit the land he had walked up and down in and had viewed to the North, South, East and West (Heb 11:9).
Yet he died owning only Sarah’s tomb. Indeed, in response to the question "How shall I know that I shall inherit it?" (Gen 15:8), God actually foretold Abraham’s death in advance of his receiving the promise (Gen 15:15-16 & Heb 11:13).
God’s faithfulness to his promise necessitated a resurrection of Abraham to inherit the land.
Because of this the memorial name, due to its association with the land promise (Exodus 3:15-17) was judged to be an implicit allusion to the future resurrection.
Gamaliel, the Rabbi who had trained Saul silenced the Sadducees by bringing against them Deut 11:21 arguing that "as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had it [the land] not, and God cannot lie, therefore they must be raised from the dead to inherit it"
Likewise, the Talmud in Gemara cites Manasseh Ben Israel as arguing the resurrection from the covenant promise.
So, far from being some subsidiary component in a wider scheme, the Abrahamic land promise underpinned Jewish belief in the resurrection.
Its endorsement by Jesus
Jesus placed himself firmly within this orthodox camp. In Matthew 22:31-32 he teaches the resurrection from the Chumash citing Yahweh’s self revelation as the patriarchs’ God of promise. (‘All live to Him’ in Luke should not be misunderstood as though it referred to the souls of the patriarchs experiencing a concious, disembodied existence in heaven. In context it is rendered as proof "That the dead are raised" Matt 22:31; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37).
Its endorsement by the primitive church
In Acts 7:5 Stephen is convinced that Abraham has not yet received the land- but will.
Given the theme of this chapter, which is the rejection of God’s messengers by his people, Stephen’s example of death before inheritance may be an implicit allusion to Jesus’ having died without yet having inherited David’s throne. It follows that just as Abraham’s death will not cause the failure of God’s promise to him, neither has Jesus’.
The whole eleventh chapter of Hebrews sets the Abrahamic promise as the goal of believers throughout all ages and climaxes with a note of anticipation that if we hold fast to the same faith, we too may share that common inheritance and a ‘better resurrection’.
Regarding the hope of a literal resurrection, Daniel 12 is a case in point. There is a reluctance among some scholars to see resurrection in early writings, for example the Pentateuch. Even where it is explicitly stated in the later prophets like Daniel there is a tendency to relegate it to a metaphor for something else.
Firstly this raises the question as to how something can be used as a metaphor which is not in the first place plainly understood. The whole idea of metaphor is the relating of something that can be easily understood to something less so, in order to make it more vivid or accessible. To propose that the resurrection stands as a metaphor necessarily implies not only that it has a place in the pre-understanding of the audience. It must also mean that it is more clearly understood than the concept it represents.
Secondly, this tendency seems to have its origins in the observation by skeptical scholars that the promise set out in the Hebrew Bible is earth and time bound. Knowing the majority church dogma that God’s promise consisted of bliss in the third heaven at death, and finding no such thing in the Hebrew Bible they promptly threw the baby out with the bathwater and dismissed the concept of a hope of resurrection among Jews, for the majority of the Old Testament period and limiting it to a development as late as the return from exile. If that.
Therefore a reluctance to recognize Judaism’s solid grasp of resurrection hope is a legacy, not of solid historical findings, but of a failure to accurately hear what the prophets were saying. It is a legacy which is sadly passed on to those who, in spite of seeing the resurrection plainly taught in the Hebrew Bible, nevertheless allow themselves to be persuaded that it would not have been understood by the original hearers as such.
Why not simply say that God has always counseled his people to look for vindication and resurrection on the last day, and that this is the hope with which he comforts all the sufferers of every age. Why not trust him to have got his point across and his saints to have understood his promise at face value? Surely this best matches Jesus’ good news, expressed in such a way as to be hidden from the wise and prudent but revealed to little children.
You wrote:
Paul reinterprets the Abrahamic inheritance in terms of the Spirit rather than the land over which a king might rule.
How would you define the kingdom of God? What do you think has happened to the land promise? I don’t want to put words in your mouth but you seem to suggest that the giving of the spirit replaced it.
Does it have to be a choice either/or? Can’t we get the spirit now and the land in the age to come? Does the giving of the spirit to the Gentiles have to some at the expense of the Davidic covenant so clearly predicted?
This is rendered all the more unnecessary in view of the fact that ‘the promise of the spirit’ may equally be read as meaning ‘that which the spirit promised’. In the same way as ‘the gospel of Paul’ was not the good news about Paul, but the gospel he preached.
The Davidic and Abrahamic covenants form the gospel as defined by God. They are the key to the whole Bible.
The writer to the Hebrews is unequivocal about the unchangeableness of the Abrahamic covenant:
Hebrews 6
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
This answers your statement below (I’ll add some more about the this in another post):
You would need to show that the New Testament imagined a renewed earthly kingdom (Israel) beyond the destruction of AD70.
Surely, in view of the above, an immense burden of proof would rest on anyone proposing the theological revolution that an alteration of the Abrahamic covenant would entail.
Consider the amount of attention that is devoted to the relationship of the Christian to the law of Moses. Yet the law was only a temporary provision to stand in between the promise of Abraham’s seed and his arrival. Where is the volume of clear and detailed teaching to justify the change you propose. Surely God didn’t slip something of this magnitude in through the back door!
Where is this reinterpretation stated as clearly and repeatedly as the covenants are?
You wrote: the entry into Jerusalem entails a redefinition of kingship.
Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem was the presentation of himself to Israel as the Davidic king. Their rejection of him simply entailed a delay. It does not force a redefinition. The question, with regards to the promise of God is, as hungertruth pointed out, one of timing not substance. David’s vacant throne will ultimately be occupied by the one to whom it rightfully belongs just as God has promised.
True, the apostles did apply eschatological prophecy to events which took place in their days but the Hebrew prophets who they quoted had always done this. They quite consistently cast current events in the light of eschatologial ones. In the face of conflict, they would remind believers of the final defeat of all their enemies in the climactic confrontation of the Day of Yahweh. This does not force us to say that the day of Yahweh happened within a generation of each of these.
In this way the rejection of Jesus’ kingship is set in Acts 4:25, in the light of the final attack on Zion’s stronghold described in Psalm 2. This does not mean that that it has been fulfilled in a sense which displaces its original meaning. This also works the other way, for example Matthew quoting Hosea 11, taking the description of a past event and applying it to the story of Jesus. None of this forces a redefinition of the event to which the text originally refers.
You wrote: ‘Why should these prophecies have been projected over the heads of the early church into a remote and unforeseeable?’
I like the way you phrased this question because it expresses exactly what I believe is being done. In a cinema the film is projected over the heads of the audience precisely in order to allow all of them an equal view of the action. Confining the message to the target audience limits its relevance to everyone else.
There is a hope set before the faithful of all ages and both testaments. It speaks to all with equal force and is of the same relevance to each. In Ephesians 4:5 Paul speaks of one hope of our calling. He explicitly equates the hope he preached with that of Israel in Acts 26:6.
When you say that there had to be some reinterpretation of that hope for it to be ‘realistic’, it seems to imply that inheriting immortality in a renewed earth was too abstract a promise to be relevant.
As compared to what? Winning a ‘battle for hearts and minds’ over the course of several hundred years? One empire replaces another, the present evil age rolls on unabated and the battle still rages on. Though many of us in the UK live relatively sheltered and prosperous lives, the world as a whole has not improved one iota since the days of Jesus. Is this really what the apostles were led to hope for?
In stark contrast to the conquest of hearts and minds, which is our mission for the interim, the consummation of Messiah’s kingdom will result in rulership of the nations with rod of iron.
Psalms 2
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in
pieces like a potter’s vessel.Re 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod
of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers:
even as I received of my Father.
Re 12: 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Re 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Why shouldn’t the prospect of resurrection have been understood as immediate by a scripturally informed person? Since there is no conscious existence in the grave, during the dreamless sleep of death the passing of time would not be experienced. The day of resurrection will seem to have followed instantly from the moment of death.
In conclusion
My concern about your views centers around the potential damage which reinterpreting and redefining the kingdom of God as Jesus preached it does.
To say it meant one thing to the prophets of the Hebrew Bible (Which, after all is the source document for New Testament faith) and another after AD70 is to set up two different gospels.
For Jesus preaching the kingdom of God was central to his mission (Luke 4:43). We are commissioned to do the same. According to Matthew 6:33 we are to make the first priority of our lives. We are told to pray unceasingly for its coming in (Luke 11:2 & Micah 4:8).
It should be the mission of the church to make this message known to both those who look for heaven at death and those who have no hope at all.
As children of Abraham we are called to imitate Abraham’s faith. We are to do so by believing the same promise Abraham did. This is what Jesus did through his gospel preaching and the writer to the Hebrews reminds us to hold fast to- in view of the forthcoming destruction of the temple (Hebrews 8:13).

The promise of the land
Having just read Chris’ objections to my view that there is significant continuity of purpose between the Old Testament people of God and the church, it now seems rather odd to be confronted with the opposite argument that I have over-emphasized the extent to which the old is redefined in the new. I have to say, I’m also getting a bit concerned that this whole discussion is becoming too abstruse and speculative. No doubt that’s unavoidable to some degree, but I do think we need to keep our theology practical - a way of thinking, a mindset, a belief-system that genuinely shapes and empowers life and work. I would suggest that this demand for realism, which I would regard as a precondition for grace, applies both at a personal and a historical level.
I can’t respond to every point in your argument but I will address one key issue arising out of your comments on Hebrews 6:17-18, which you suggest answers my statement about the ‘need to show that the New Testament imagined a renewed earthly kingdom (Israel) beyond the destruction of AD70’. These verses assert basically that God’s purpose is unchangeable: if God makes a promise, he can be relied on to keep it. The promise to Abraham is given as an example:
Two things to note: i) there is no reference to the land; the promise is to bless and multiply; and ii) it is said that Abraham obtained the promise, which, if I have followed your argument correctly, contradicts the point you made about Abraham needing to be resurrected in order to inherit the land. It is worth noting also that in the passages in Genesis that record the covenant with Abraham (12:1-3, 7; 13:14-17; 15:4-21; 17:4-16; 22:15-18) the land appears not to be directly connected with the promise of blessing through descendants. The land is not mentioned at all, for example, when the promise is first made in 12:1-3 or following the ‘sacrifice’ of Isaac (22:17-18). There is, admittedly, a danger of reading too much into this observation, but there is a sense, I think, in which the land is secondary to the original promise. The land becomes necessary because Abraham will become a great nation. As an extended family he does not need the whole of Canaan. It is only after the time in Egypt that Israel becomes a nation and needs territory (cf. Gen.15:13-16; Ex.1:7).
My point is that it is the people, not the land, that matters. When we get a change in the terms of membership following Pentecost, when the people of God becomes a diaspora community spread throughout the world having inherited the Spirit of God as a fulfilment of the promise to Abraham, it no longer needs a national territory. As Tom Wright says, the whole world is God’s Holy land. To continue to expect this concrete geo-political fulfilment of the notion of a Davidic kingship in geographical Israel is to reverse the foundational transposition of Israel’s symbols to Christ that we see in the New Testament.
Andrew Your most recent
Andrew Your most recent comments put me in a position not only of having to back up the point I am making, but also justify my reason for insisting on its importance. This is valid and I also welcome your concern that we keep in view the question of how to apply our faith practically. Nevertheless, it is still my opinion that it’s worthwhile devoting attention to the theological framework within which we do this. One concern need not be played off against another. Abraham was promised both the seed and the land You wrote about my quotation of Hebrews 6 that:“It is said that Abraham obtained the promise, which, if I have followed your argument correctly, contradicts the point you made about Abraham needing to be resurrected in order to inherit the land.” You have followed my argument correctly, but I don’t agree with you the writer to the Hebrews only envisaged part of the Abrahamic covenant as being unchangeable. The book of Hebrews reflects this. According to 6:15 Abraham has received the promise and according to 11:13 he has not. One of the principle themes of the book of Hebrews is the manner in which Jesus fulfills the law of Moses, hence, the sacrificial system, temple, priesthoods, festivals etc. Yet the Abrahamic covenant is clearly set out as being unfulfilled. More on this later. Clarification of ‘the promise’ in Hebrews 11:13, is provided in verse 8. It is ‘the place he should after receive for an inheritance’. In verse 9, Isaac and Jacob are described as ‘heirs of the same promise’. They were also personally promised the land: Isaac in Ge 26:3 and Jacob in Ge 28:13. God’s promise to Abraham was multi-faceted (including that Abraham’s name being made great; a great nation coming from him; that he would be a blessing and that all the families of the earth would be blessed in him; his seed would be as the dust of the earth; that whoever blessed him would be blessed and whoever cursed him would be cursed; he would be the father of many nations; kings would come from him; he would make a perpetual ‘everlasting’ covenant with him; the land of Canaan would be an ‘everlasting possession’ to him and his seed; the God would be a God to him and his seed; his seed would possess the gates of their enemies; in his seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed). It is being fulfilled step by step. First the descendant, then the nation, then the nation inheriting the land, then the seed to whom the promise was made, then the blessing to all nations etc. To portray the fulfilment of those aspects of the promise which have already taken place as making redundant those elements as yet unfulfilled is, to borrow your language, a reversal of what Hebrews 6 is saying. The example of the blessing to multiply is actually given as evidence to strengthen our faith that God will close the deal. His covenant faithfulness in the past is evidence that he will deliver in the future. In view of this, I would contend that there is rather a lot at stake here. This includes the definition of gospel, as I tried to set out in my previous posts. In Hebrews 2, the ‘great salvation’, which we are sternly warned not to ‘neglect’, is the ‘message spoken from the first by the Lord’ (in his preaching of the gospel of the kingdom). This is confirmed in verse 5 by an immediate reference to the promised subjection of the inhabited earth in the age to come. This is defined with reference to a restoration of the Edenic dominion of the son of man described in Psalm 8. The importance of anything related to a Biblical understanding of the gospel should be self-evident. There is also a sense in which the righteousness of both God and man is revealed in the covenant faithfulness, or lack thereof of either party. So just as our righteousness is measured by our adherence to the covenant, so is God’s. Therefore it is paramount to understand the terms of the covenant and to insist that God will stick to his side of the bargain. ‘Righteousness in the OT is not a matter of actions conforming to a given set of absolute legal standards, but of behaviour which is in keeping with the two-way relationship between God and man.’- New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology. As we know, that relationship is defined in terms of covenant. ’… in neither case is it [the status of righteousness on both sides of the relationship] primarily an ethical category designating conduct, but a religious one characterising a covenant relationship of God with his people, both on his side and the side of those who must stand in it towards him’. J A T Robinson, ‘Wrestling with Romans’ p.38 So my question is- Will Abraham ever get all that God promised him? How do you envisage this taking place? The Continuity and discontinuity between covenants The Bible has a lot to say about the changes brought about by the transition from Old to New Covenant. Most importantly, the ratification of the New Covenant signaled the end of the Old. This is explicitly stated in Hebrews 8:8-13, quoting Jeremiah 31:31-34. The covenant made at Sinai was, at the time of writing, ready to vanish away. But what about the Abrahamic covenant? Galatians presents the law as filling the gap between the promises (the plural seems to encompass the many aspects) made to Abraham and the promised seed finally arriving. Now that the seed of Abraham has come, there is no need for the schoolteacher whose purpose was to bring us to faith in him. But the Abrahamic covenant still stands. Why? The covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise (Galatians 3:17-18). The removal/fulfillment of the Old Covenant makes no difference at all to the original Abrahamic promise. Quite the opposite. The promise is presented in this context as articulating the end to which God’s dealings with Israel through both the law and the Messiah worked. You seem to propose that the land promise is no longer an issue. In contrast, the scriptures (Acts 7:5 Hebrews 11:13) make clear that it has not yet been fulfilled. If the land promise no longer has any bearing, why was precious parchment used to communicate the counterproductive argument that God hasn’t done what he said he would? Paul concludes:And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise (Galatians 3:29). By faith we are adopted into the family of God, becoming ‘joint heirs’ with Jesus and therefore candidates to receive God’s promise as defined in his covenant with Abraham. So the adoption of sons described in Ch 4, though wonderful, is nonetheless the means to an end. That end is the inheritance referred to in Ch 3. It is for this reason that I underline the importance of the land promise. How can we be Abraham’s seed by faith if we do away with an element of what Abraham believed? It is worthy of note that Jesus is also portrayed as the recipient of the promises which were made to him ‘in Abraham’. Hence Romans 4:13 and Psalm 2:8-9 (…and Rev 2:26-27!). Jesus will get the land, with the rest of the world thrown in. God so loved the world that he gave us his Son. God so loves his Son that he will give him the world. Though a change in the conditions which constitute being part of the people of God, and hence eligible to receive the blessing of Abraham has taken place, this does not necessitate a change in the substance of the covenant promise itself. Conclusion I hope you don’t think that my insistence on a literal interpretation of the covenants and an unaltered gospel of the kingdom is just an unnecessary splitting of hairs. One of the effects of what you are saying would seem to be that, when Jesus was preaching the gospel of the kingdom, he wasn’t speaking to the church. This is the fatal error of dispensationalism. I believe that these covenants are the theme by which the whole story of the Bible is played out and that continued dialogue along these lines will prove fruitful. If you (or anyone else reading this) are willing to go on with this discussion, there are a few observations I would like to make with regards to the Davidic covenant. If not, I’m prepared to move on to another subject.
The Abrahamic promise, the kingdom and the gospel
Theocrat - I’m picking up your invitation: “If you (or anyone else reading this) are willing to go on with this discussion …” as an “anyone else”.
Your proposal for an alternative way of viewing the ‘Abrahamic covenant’ was densely argued and somewhat eye-wateringly intimidating!
As I understand it, you are proposing a future fulfilment of, at least, some aspects of God’s promises to Abraham (especially in relation to the inheritance of the land), which leads you to a future conception of the enthronement of Jesus as king over the nations and all the earth, and a future restoration of Israel as the land from which this fulfilment will take place. Andrew, on the other hand, sees the kingship of Jesus being fulfilled in A.D.70 and the destruction of Rome, and prophecies pointing to this end. Both views incorporate the promises made to Abraham as being of central significance, but come to radically different conclusions about what these promises will entail. This rather crude simplification may be failing to do justice to what you have argued at considerable length, and here as elsewhere, I’d be grateful for your correction.
You say there will be a literal fulfilment of the promise of ‘the land’ to Abraham and his descendants through the resurrection, the land being specifically Israel, and that from this land Jesus will reign over all the earth, thus fulfilling Psalm 2, verses 8 & 9 in particular, Revelation 2:26-27. Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11 are also cited in support of this view.
In one sense you are arguing for a traditional premillennial scenario, but doing so less clumsily, using scriptural references which I have personally never before heard marshalled in such a way.
You also say that your proposed view of a fulfilment of the promise (of the land) to Abraham through the resurrection was clearly understood by Jewish interpreters of the Hebrew scriptures, and emerges clearly through the scriptures themselves. You argue for the naming of God in Exodus 3:15-17 as evidence of a resurrection in which Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would enjoy together the occupation of the land of promise. Gamaliel understood as much, and as the teacher of Paul, one would expect to find his views in Paul also.
That the issue may not have been quite so clear seems to me to be reflected in Jesus’s encounter with the Sadducees (Matthew 22:29-32), or Paul’s defence of himself before the Sanhedrin (Acts 23:6-10). However, it must be conceded that Jesus’s reply to the Sadducees closes the matter theologically - if they “knew neither the scriptures or the power of God”, it is certain that he did on both counts. But I don’t see anywhere in Paul a smidgeon of a reference to a future restoration of land to a restored future Jewish nation.
The problem with your argument, as I see it, is that you are resting a great deal on a literal understanding of God’s promises to Abraham, at the expense of little if anything to be said about a literal fulfilment of the ‘land’ promise anywhere in the New Testament. And while there is a great deal to be said about a future fulfilment of ‘new heavens and new earth’ as resurrection realities, there is little or nothing (as I see it) about an entity within this to be equated with the land promised to Abraham. Exactly where are the promises of a restored geographical Israel in an age to come in the New Testament? Isn’t the silence of the New Testament scriptures on this subject rather more deafening than any other explanation?
You quote Psalm 2 as a reference to a future installing of Jesus as king of the nations, over whom he will rule with a ‘rod of iron’. The scenario is the premillennial one of a world in which there will be a mixture of resurrected saints and nations which remain sullenly unsubmissive to the rule of Jesus. This presupposes an enthronement of Jesus yet to come, and a period of time (presumably millennial period) in which He will rule, albeit unsuccessfully, if the outcome is, as the theory suggests, a future rebellion of just about the whole world against Jesus and a beleaguered church at Jerusalem, and a final showdown in which Jesus’s enemies are easily defeated and destroyed.
I don’t take this view, or the one proposed by Andrew (the ‘coming’ of the Son of Man into the presence of the Ancient of Days as identified exclusively with the destruction of Jerusalem/Rome). The enthronement of Jesus has already taken place (before A.D.70, in my opinion) at the ascension of Jesus. Its reality was proved with the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost, which was the beginning of Jesus’s kingdom rule on earth - just as Isaiah had described it. To be sure, there will be a greater fulfilment of the kingdom to come, but this places the power of the gospel right where it needs to be - and a fulfilment of the promise to Abraham where it needs to be. The blessing of the Seed came to the whole earth through the Spirit. Jesus is Lord wherever the Spirit of the Lord is (2 Cor 3:17-18). No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ but by the Spirit. In my view, the tendency of Andrew’s argument is to locate the power of God and the gospel too much in the past (in A.D.70). The tendency of your view, I believe, is to place it too much in the future.
I have admittedly simplified greatly something that you have argued at length. (And added one or two things you didn’t say but were implied - just to be provocative!) But I do like to try to distinguish the wood from the trees, and don’t like too much to get bogged down in the undergrowth of closely argued theological positions.
Two promised lands
I understand Theocrat to be making the case that Abraham understood God to be promising him BOTH a this-worldly land of Israel, to be inherited by his descendants after some generations (Genesis 15:13-16), AND an other-worldly promised land, requiring resurrection to obtain (Hebrews 11:13-16). I would add that 1 Kings 4:20-21 indicates a literal fulfillment of the promise of the literal land, and the Revelation passages foretell the heavenly fulfillment of the other-worldly land.
This other-worldly land is not to be confused with Canaan. You complain that this places the fulfilment of this promise (and perhaps similar promises made to Christians?) “too much in the future.” You point out that nowhere in Paul is there a smidgeon of a reference to a future restoration of land to a restored future Jewish nation. Yet, do you not find in Paul the idea of the church being grafted into Israel (see Romans ch. 4 or ch. 9, for example, or Galatians 3), and sharing in the inheritance of Abraham? In 1 Corinthians 15:50 Paul speaks of an “inheritance”—the kingdom of God—that cannot be inherited by “flesh and blood,” in a decidedly eschatological context. The best reason I can think of why Paul speaks of this as an “inheritance” is because he has in mind the Abrahamic covenant.
If you want to proclaim the here-and-now-ness of the spiritual kingdom, well and good. I would agree that there is much to proclaim. But there remains a very important hereafter-ness. The thing is, OUR eschatology as Christians is more akin to ABRAHAM’s, in that we look forward to much the same things; though he had some covenental promises we have not received, and vice-versa. However, our eschatology—the end of our “age”—is very different from physical Israel’s in that the very act of incorporating and blessing the nations is the end of Israel’s exclusive relationship as top dog with God.
How many promised lands?
The idea of the promise of land to Abraham being also our promise of a land in the resurrection is new to me, so I need more time to digest it, though I’ve always believed Abraham’s ‘inheritance’ to be more than he received in his lifetime, and that we share in this inheritance, both now and in the future.
I’m not complaining at all that this particular aspect of the promise places too much of the fulfilment in the future - as I believe in a future hope (return of Christ, resurrection, final judgement, new heavens and earth). But I was objecting to what I saw to be a welding onto this of premillennial baggage (though this is no criticism of Theocrat’s particular way of unfolding his biblical take on things), In particular, this involves the use of texts like Psalm 2 and its supporting parallels to suggest a kind of millennial reign of Jesus over ‘the nations’, and the participation in this of a national Israel. (If that is what Theocrat was suggesting).
I do find the idea of gentiles being grafted into Israel (Romans 11) - but I do not find that Paul uses this as an argument for a future emergence/renewal of Israel/the Jews as a nation, or of a continuing separate identity of Israel/the Jews in his eschatological purposes. The new covenant supersedes the old. I’m not quite sure what you are saying in your references to Romans 4 & 9. For sure, there are believing Jews, as there will be in all generations. “And so (‘in this way’, not ‘then’) all Israel (a representative portion) will be saved.”
As far as Abraham is concerned, it certainly has occurred to me that Abraham’s faith is the kind that we need to obtain salvation through Christ, and that his justification was on the same grounds (though not with the same focus) as our justification. And that this is the basis of our common ‘inheritance’ - both now, and in the future.
But I’d be interested to know if I am interpreting Theocrat correctly - in which case, I would still have to maintain that I find an overladen future emphasis in what he is describing.
I wish I could be so succinct!
Thanks for taking up the invitation. I really appreciate this opportunity for discussion. My apologies for not being able to answer more quickly. I’ve got rather a lot on my plate with work at the moment.
You sum up my messages very nicely. I enjoyed your own tongue in cheek summary of the millennium. You have indeed interpreted me correctly. I just wish I could be so succinct!
You wrote:
The problem with your argument … Exactly where are the promises of a restored geographical Israel in an age to come in the New Testament? Isn’t the silence of the New Testament scriptures on this subject rather more deafening than any other explanation?
I think what you are saying here links up with Andrew’s point that when the NT does mention Abraham, it is predominantly in connection with the promise of progeny as opposed to the land.
To begin with I would like to point out the following:
a) The Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are given extensive definition and clarification in the Hebrew Bible. Much of its content can be seen as an outworking of these themes.
b) If words such as ‘hope’, ‘inheritance’ and ‘promise’ really are allusions to the land promise and David’s throne, then the Pauline epistles are saturated with direct, though subtle references to them.
c) Paul may well have preferred to speak euphemistically of the kingdom, since Rome was often listening in.
d) With regards to the definition of the land promise, is it really fair to equate the Paul’s silence (if indeed he was silent) over this with the fact that it has been redefined or that it is a symbol which has been transposed on to something else? Isn’t this argument from silence sheer speculation?
The same observation could lead to the opposite conclusion. Perhaps more focus is given to issues related to the law, or the promise of descendants precisely because these aspects of Biblical revelation had undergone the greatest amount of change. The law was fulfilled and ready to pass away. This needed a lot of explanation and qualification.
Likewise, the promise to Abraham that his descendants will inherit the blessing also undergoes a degree of development. There are frequent mentions of the fact that natural descent is not enough by itself to make a person a child of Abraham, according to the promise. Faith in it is also required. This in turn opens the way for those who aren’t natural descendants but do have Abraham’s faith. All of this called some for exposition and this is provided. There are no such explanations regarding a transposition of the land promise.
From this standpoint, wouldn’t silence about an issue so thoroughly defined and given prominent emphasis in existing revelation, suggest that it has been left alone? That there is no need for explanation because there has been no alteration? That existing beliefs and assumptions about the promised inheritance have gone unchallenged? That all Jesus did in relation to the promises was confirm them (Rom 15:8)?
In summary, it may not be a good idea to formulate a redefinition based on the silence of the New Testament, since the degree of coverage attributed to a given issue may actually be inversely proportional to the extent to which its definition has undergone modification in the transition from Old to New Covenant.
The ‘big issues’ are located at the place of greatest change: Who are the people of God now? What is their standing with regards to the law of Moses? Not: What will the people of God inherit?
You also wrote:
The enthronement of Jesus has already taken place (before A.D.70, in my opinion) at the ascension of Jesus. Its reality was proved with the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost, which was the beginning of Jesus’ kingdom rule on earth - just as Isaiah had described it.
Where does the New Testament describe Jesus as reigning or being enthroned prior to his future return to earth? I can only think of Revelation 3:21, but even then he is described as sitting in his Father’s throne, not David’s. Notice the contrast in this verse between the Father’s throne, which he shares with his Son, and the Son’s, which he will share with his followers.
The Son’s current session, if it can be described as a reign, it is that of the priest-king, Melchisedec- characterised by peace (Hebrews 7:2). The time has not yet come for his enemies will be made into his footstool. I would refer you to my first article ‘Jesus’ Gospel of the kingdom’. The coming reign will extend from David’s throne and be more forceful.
After all, ruling the nations with a rod of iron can hardly be equated with a ‘kingdom of hearts’? Why would the Son need a rod of iron in the new heavens and earth in which all opposition will already have been put down (1Cor 15:24-25)? The rod of iron is mentioned often, especially in Revelation. Doesn’t this image symbolise forceful rule over a reluctant populace?
I take on board you and Chris’ point that we mustn’t downplay those aspects of the kingdom which are already present. Surely no-one would question the fact that the kingdom of God is, in some sense a ‘here and now reality’. Nevertheless, the overriding emphasis in the New Testament seems to me to be primarily future. But this appears today to have been reversed by the majority church since the time of Augustine’s immensely influential ‘City of God’.
It is in the future that the son of man will come in his glory and judge all nations (Matthew 25:31-32); that the apostles will sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28); that the elect sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Luke 13:28-29); that the church will judge (in the sense of govern, like the Old Testament judges) the world and angels (1 Corinthians 6:2-3).
For the time being Jesus’ rule is peaceful and would seem to be confined to those who choose to submit to him.
You also wrote:
The blessing of the Seed came to the whole earth through the Spirit.
Let’s see if we can all clarify a mutual understanding of this. According to Ephesians 1:14, the spirit is the down-payment on the inheritance. It guarantees the bearer that they have been adopted into the family of God and are an heir to receive what God promised Abraham. Doubly so, since it also connotes resurrection, being the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead and gave him immortality. In this sense, though mortal, scripture speaks of us as already possessing zoe aionios or the ‘life of the age [to come]’. This would seem to be the sense of Galatians 3:14.
Chris,
I welcome your agreement, and thank you for joining in, though I’m not sure if you have understood me on one particular point.
I wouldn’t define the kingdom of God as ‘other worldly’ in the sense of being located somewhere other than planet earth. The words translated as ‘world’ in some Bible versions actually refer to the current evil ‘age’ and ‘system’. Though these will come to an end, the planet will not. It will need to continue in order for someone to inherit it. So the inheritance of literal Canaan and the ‘world to come’ both refer to different aspects of the same promise.
There is a wonderful continuity to God’s purpose. Lawrence put his finger on this in an earlier post. The gospel was preached both to Abraham and by Jesus (Galatians 3:8). The promise was made to both Abraham and Jesus (Galatians 3:16). We are joint heirs with/in Jesus of the same.
I would also point out, going back to Peter’s cheeky mention of ‘millennial baggage’ that there seems to be some sort of transitional phase between the present time and the new heavens and earth, through which the process of renewal takes place:
Isaiah 65:17- For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Though antediluvian lifespans will be restored, the last enemy will not yet have been defeated, and there will still be sin:
20- for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Since death remains, this time must be prior to 1Cor 15:24-26.
25- The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. This calls to mind the reign of David’s Son in Isaiah 11 (Note yet another mention of ‘the rod’ in 11:4) and a re-gathering of natural Israel from the nations, by her tribes subsequent to this.
This text is typical of many which appear not to fit with either the present age or the new heavens and earth. What to they refer to, if not a millennial type reign?
I welcome Peter’s desire to take a bit of time to digest the significance of the land promise. For me, it had the effect of making a lot of the Old Testament relevant to me, which previously had not been. I now believe that ‘long life in the land’ is a prospect which I share with the people of God of all the ages.
Peter, returning to the question of emphasis, which seems to be at the heart of much of this. Is my stress on future hope really overladen? I would say that this accurately reflects the NT emphasis on hope. We are saved by hope, and the current creation is subjected to vanity, yet in hope. Yet we don’t hope for what we already have. It necessitates a forward looking orientation, a focus on the future.
As for ‘physical’ Israel: God is not finished with Abraham’s biological descendants. In Jewish thought, salvation is a corporate affair. Perdition is expressed in terms of being ‘cut off from among the people’. Are we to believe that God has now gone one step further and ‘cut off the people’?
Isn’t it more consistent to say that God has done what he has always done? Cut off the unbelieving branches but- and here’s the new thing- at the same time worked in reverse, ‘cutting in’ some folks which were previously strangers to the covenants of promise.
Whilst appreciating the fact that Israel no longer has exclusive claims over her God and his covenant, we must avoid going to the opposite extreme and adopting a ‘replacement theology’ according to which the church displaces Israel in God’s future purpose. To this Paul responds by pointing out the irrevocability of God’s gift and calling. We are in fact grafted in to Israel’s family tree in order for us to participate in the same patrimony as the believing, natural branches. We’re all in the same boat now, as part of the elect nation and sharing the common destiny of vindication in the resurrection and inheritance of the land/earth. This means that if God’s purpose for Israel falls to the ground, so will we.
Brevity is the soul of wit - or was it virtue?
Theocrat - I would really like to put some of the stuff I have been learning through these engagements into a kind of teaching package, which I hope to run past the church here in the autumn - in a seminar format. It would be great to get someone down each week, to develop their own pet interest. Can you imagine it? Ivan on Catholic fundamentalism and the gospel, Chris on the covenants, Andrew on postmodernism and a narrative/historical understanding of the gospels (he could have two weeks), Theocrat on the Abrahamic and Davidic promises and their fulfilments - can you imagine all of us in a room together? It would be completely wild!
Just three responses to the many things which you say, which in my innocence (or ignorance about these matters) I have never before seen set out in the way you have unfolded them -
1. It is puzzling to me that ‘the land’ aspect of the promise (to Abraham) receives so little attention in the prophetic ‘fulfilments’ of the N.T. However, what does receive attention is how radically Jesus changed the expectations and presumptions with which Israel had come to view its own destiny. Jesus came to embody in himself so much that was central to Jewish thinking - the true Israelite, the true temple, and I’d have to say, for myself, that he embodies the true land - being formed, as to his humanity, ‘of the dust of the earth’, just as we are all so formed, in our descent from Adam. In Jesus’s case, it was the earth of Israel which had formed him. My problem with seeing a future fulfilment or restoration of Israel as a nation in its land is that it compromises (for me) the radical change which Jesus has already inaugurated. (But I think your bags are already well packed, in the hold and five miles high on this subject).
2. Jesus ruling the nations ‘with a rod of iron’ - I think I’m right in saying that this could just as well be a picture of judgement as a picture of rule extending over a period of time. That’s how I would see it, anyway. It’s Jesus judging the nations - final judgement.
3. It’s partly the use of Psalm 110 and surrounding verses in Peter’s Pentecost address (v.32 - 35) which convinces me of the inauguration of a ‘reign’ of Jesus at the ascension. It’s also the confidence with which the disciples are now able to act and speak in his name - beginning with Peter. And that’s because of a recognition - and impartation of the Spirit - of Jesus as Lord in their lives. Lord meant Lord just as Caesar was Lord - except that Jesus’s reign extended over Caesar. Words like ‘King’ and ‘reign’ are metaphors - and do have an interpretation: in whatever way we care to see or describe it, Jesus now had authority. ‘At the right hand of God’ is another way of putting it. When he ‘ascended’, he became ‘Lord’ - over sin and death, but also with the right to reign - over the nations (ie over people from all ethnic groups as well as from all political nations). Also he is the authority which ultimately rules over all other authorities. So I find your distinction between the Father’s throne and David’s throne somewhat hair-splitting - though it does perhaps provide a way for you to explain the ‘double fulfilment’ pattern, which, incidentally, is a peculiar feature of premillennialism.
Anyway, these conversations are always enlightening to me - even if I end up with a different point of view from the people I converse with. It helps me to get a firmer grasp of what I personally do believe. This would be true of all the conversations I have been having over the months on this site. I’d also say that I do take on board a great deal as well from the different approaches on offer.
P.S. I really appreciated your post on ‘Sacrifice, Temple, and Moltmann’ Lawrence; my (very elderly) parents have been to the centre at Windermere, and next time I’m up there, I’d love to drop by - if that’s permitted. The URC has a real treasure in yourself, if that’s the kind of stuff you are into.
P.P.S. I’d like to hear what you’ve got to say about the future fulfilment of the Davidic kingship and promises, Theocrat. Why not give them a canter on the site?
Whatever it is, I'm lacking in it!
Peter,
It was wit. I had the same quote in mind, Oscar Wilde I think. Whatever it is, I’m lacking in it!
You wrote:
I’d like to hear what you’ve got to say about the future fulfilment of the Davidic kingship and promises, Theocrat. Why not give them a canter on the site?
The conversation does seem to be leading towards David, his throne etc. If you’ve got patience enough to wait for it I’ll try and put something together. That conference idea sounds like a lot of fun.
I must say that I do enjoy the tone of these OST discussions.