I just had a conversation with an old (85 years) theolgian from my church (Bretheren background) - he’s grasped some of the emerging church conversation with some energy. He asked me what the view of Israel future was - restoration? “There’s too much stuff that links it (Israel) to Christ’s return” is what he said. Do we see all the ‘Israel escatology’ as descriptive of or as being fulfilled in Christ’s first coming? Is the geographical Israel of any significance now? For example he mentioned the ground on the Mount of Olives being split in two when He comes ( I think Zachariah 14:4) Does anyone have any views on this?

Heaven forbid!
Heaven forbid! - the apostle Paul uses Hebrew’s strongest form of negation to absolutely nail the idea that God will impugn his own faithfulness by not completing his declared purpose for Israel, his son. [Romans 3.4 & 11.1,11]
The idea that all the promises given to Israel could be understood to have been “fulfilled” in the person of Jesus and the events of his first coming derives from Augustine; the modern day derivative of this school of thought has been “restorationalism,” teaching, “replacement theology” etc. which essentially insists that the church is the “New Israel” [this in spite the fact that the sixty or seventy times the New Testament uses the word “Israel” it’s intended plain-sense meaning is almost always the national people Israel, just as in the Old Testament and even the slightly anomalous uses do not support the New Israel argument!]
The opposite school of thought - which insists upon a future time of fulfilment for the national people of Israel, as distinct from the church - has largely been pressed by so-called “dispensationalists.” Such a theological system insists not only upon different ways and manners of God’s dealings (“dispensations”) during different epochs of time (most theologians accept this as a biblical reality) but more importantly upon God’s having two seperate and expressed agendas: one for his earthly people, Israel, another for his heavenly people, the church, the latter forming a ‘parenthesis’ to the former.
Somewhere in between these two extremes, there is, however, another, much more vital, emerging movement which speaks directly into the subject of Israel. This is the Messianic Jewish movement. As far as I am aware, the greatest work of theology issuing forth from this movement is from David Stern, who has authored the extraordinary Jewish New Testament, and the associated Commentary and “Messianic Jewish Manifesto” as part of his effort to heal the great rift between Judaism and Christianity. (The Christian ‘movement’ which has embraced this is sometimes referred to as “Jewish Roots,” but also often has associations with Christian Zionism etc.)
This movement and the theology that underpins it has much in common with certain emphases of N.T. Wright, mainly in consideration of the Jewish roots of the Christian faith and the concept of covenant-based righteousness as over against legalism. In particular, it hails the extraordinary story of the Jewish people and the joining to the “house of Israel” of those Gentiles (non-Jews) who are willing to trust in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua (the greek for which is translated into English as “Jesus Christ”).
When the story of the Jews and their amazing history with their God, is seen from beginning to end, not only does the coming of Jesus find it’s right context, but the entire panorama takes on a drama that makes it quite impossible for us to consider that God has now finished with the Jews as a people.
The apostle Paul makes the first and most obvious refutation: God can’t have finished with the Jews because I myself am a Jew. In fact, the entire early “church” or Messianic Community (to give it a less - or at least differently - culturally-baggaged title) was Jewish and the great struggle was whether the Gentiles were to be included in the people of God who were gathering in “The Way,” around the Messiah and the disciples who represented him, post-ascension.
How ironic, then, that the question today is effectively, “Is there room in the people of God for (the) Jews?” Of course, some will argue that, “Yes, of course, there is room, just as long as they give up all that ‘legalistic’ nonsense, concerned with keeping Torah!” This is not the space to go into that argument, suffice it to say that such ignorance of the real issues is no way forward at all. In fact, we could use Paul’s argument again in our modern context: for sure, God has not finished with the Jews since there are again, for the first time in nearly two thousand years, a real movement of Jews who trust in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua.
However, this is still not the real question that Jon’s “old theologian” is asking. He wants to know, Does God have unfinished business with the national people Israel? and it is this to which the answer is “Yes.” and “Heaven forbid!” that we should overlook it.
Israel was a failure in the eyes of many Christians. They failed, so that argument goes, to keep the Law of God and keep his covenant and so he rejected them. Unfortunately, if this is so, then there is no good reason why God may not reject the “church” tomorrow for similar breach of covenant!
In fact, Israel was a success in many ways, if we only understand God’s dealiings with them. And we should because they have much in common with our Saviour. They too were “despised” and “rejected” by men. In fact, they became the “ransom nation,” set aside in the purposes of God - for a season - in order to make room for the Gentile nations. This is the plain reasoning of the apostle Paul in Romans 9-11 - though a serious student of this is advised to consult beyond normal protestant translations and theology if this is to be seen. (The Jewish New Testament and Commentary provide particularly unique insight, but see also Cranfield, Fruchtembaum, Fuller etc.)
Thus, in the fullness of God’s time, “all Israel” will be saved, restored into the “new covenant” that God originally “cut with the House of Israel,” and indeed, this restoration will bring “riches to the world.” The role of the Gentiles (“the church”) in all of this is to show to the Jewish people the same mercy that God has shown to us, in order to provoke the Jewish people to jealousy over their Messiah! Not that we have gotten off to a good start in that department, the “church” having played most generous host to the anti-Semetic virus for hundreds of years.
All of this is to provide a context for examining specific promises in respect of Israel, e.g. Eretz Israel, “the Land of Israel.” etc. This is a complex area of theology; I hope that these thoughts will at least provide an interesting kick-start to this forum…
"All Israel"
When Apostle Paul says “all Israel” will be saved, I wonder what he means. God in Jesus Christ has provided the only way to him (John 14:6) and “all Israel” must come through Christ in order to be restored somehow to God (I’ll leave aside the rather complex debate on what “coming through Jesus” means).
If we are agreed at the last point, it seems to me that Paul argues this way: since God’s covenants point to Jesus as Messiah, any “Jew” one who does not accept him as such is not really a Jew—they’ve missed the whole point, and physical circumcision and the covenant it pointed to are useless to them—in fact, by refusing the Messiah, they have broken the Law.
So I must ask what you mean when you say, “all Israel”, just to clarify terms.
Shalom!
What sort of salvation for 'all Israel'?
Perhaps the more important question is: What does it mean in this context for Israel, whether all or part, to be saved? Should we take into account the fact that this is written before AD 70? Did Paul, like Jesus, foresee a catastrophic divine judgment on the nation? Did he imagine that this disaster might in some way be averted as a result of the incorporation of Gentiles into the covenant community? We have tended to assume that ‘salvation’ consists simply in coming to know Christ, but perhaps there is a concrete historical dimension to be taken into account. His ‘heart’s desire and prayer to God’ (Rom.10:1) would then be that his ‘brethren’, his ‘kinsmen by race’, would not have to suffer the horrors of war, the termination of their ancestral worship, etc. The question then is: Is it possible to read ‘so all Israel will be saved’ (Rom.11:26) as being conditional upon the repentance of the nation as the ‘full number of the Gentiles’ comes in - just as the restoration of the natural branches to the olive tree is conditional upon them not persisting ‘in their unbelief’ (Rom.11:23)?
All valid points, but didn't
All valid points, but didn’t I just say basically the same thing? I have no problem with your suggestion (and I’m taking time to look at the text more closely), as long as we don’t postulate a qualitatively different kind of salvation for Israel from that experienced by Gentiles. What are your own opinions as to the historical aspect of the salvation Paul is praying for, or were the aspects you mentioned reflective of your own belief?
What sort of salvation for 'all Israel' - response
Having read and been intrigued by several of your posts (e.g. 209, 273, 298), Andrew, and some of NT Wright writing regarding the new perspective(?) on Jesus - i.e. as Jewish prophet, first and foremost, in the light of a / the pending judgement and concomitant destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 - and entered to some considerable extent into the thinking you set forth therein, I think Romans 11 is an excellent context in which to raise a question like this, Andrew, regarding the very nature of what we read from the text regarding salvation. My present sense is that it is much easier to build this ‘new perspective’ reading up from the gospels, than the epistles. It seems to me, that it is therein that the apostolic revelation of the ressurected Jesus takes over and is set out in all it’s theological glory, but I wonder if you will be satsified with such a convenient discontinuity?
I also read Brian McLaren’s commentary on Romans (reader beware: by clicking on this link you will download a copy of Romans.doc - 197kb) and endeavoured to read Wright’s via the web (largely inaccessible) to see what they made of it. Brian’s thinking is interesting, he feels his commentary is the only one, besides Wright’s that explores the dimensions he does. It is certainly refreshing and interesting. He places the entire letter as the torturous writings of Paul trying to unite Jew and Gentile theologically in the Messiah. Nothing much to do with soteriology (doctrine of “salvation”). If you haven’t read it, it’s well worth ploughing through.
My own sense of this particular text in regard to your suggestion: does Paul have in mind the “salvation of Israel” from the specific destruction of Jerusalem, is that this is not what he primarily has in view here. I would want to go back to the first mention of salvation in this letter (Romans 1.16) and trace it’s use and see whether the thrust of what he is saying in regard to salvation can be read throughout in this way. I don’t think it can. The only other reason for so doing would be that something in the immediate context of Romans 11 provides reason for such a reading. I don’t find one myself.
But what is the nature of “salvation” that Paul speaks of? Unsurprisingly, for those who know my posts, I turn to Stern again, who turns us to the use of the word “Saviour” in Luke 2.11, where he suggests the text prescribes functions to Yeshua / Jesus which are otherwise exclusively God’s (e.g. Lk 1.47)
He also goes on to point out that an overview of the use of the corresponding Hebrew word in the Tanakh concludes that “salvation may be from outward enemies (e.g. Exodus 14.30) or inward uncleanness (sins - e.g. Ezekiel 36.29) and it may apply to a people or an individual.”
In the context of Romans 11: in my escatalogical reading of the new testament both kinds of deliverance will occur concurrently. Jerusalem will (again) be surrounded by her enemies (in a cyclical fulfilment of prophecy which does not, I think, render inappropriate your / Wright’s reading of the primary escatological event); the Jewish people will then be delivered in the same timeframe from outward enemies and inward uncleanness as they see again and mourn “him whom they have pierced” (Zech. 12.10) and say again “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.” (Luke 13.35, note corresponding text in Mt 23.39 occurs after Mt 21.9, implying another future occassion?).
I look forward to your thoughts.
all Israel
This has been a vexed question for many people, it seems. That seems to happen when the text doesn’t fit our view of what it ought to be saying!
David Stern (Jewish New Testament Commentary, pp. 418-423) takes us through the options for what “all Israel” might mean, having first made clear that Israel is a reference to the historical national people who descended from Ya’akov (Jacob), the third Patriarch of Judaism, who inherited the promises made to Avraham and Yitzchak (Isaac):
every single Jew, past, present and future (p.p.f.); every single Messianic Jew, p,p,f; the Jewish people as a nation, but not necessarily including every individual Jew; all believers, Jewish and Gentile, p.p.f..Only the third option is correct. The theological reasoning for this is complex (involved) but not complicated (difficult to understand) unless we come at it from a dogmatic viewpoint (very un-postmodern!). However, I unfortunately don’t have the time to do justice to it here and now, so I’ll leave it there, as is.
In other words, “all” is used figuratively here, not literally. In Hebrew thinking the word kol (“all”) in reference to a collective does not mean every single individual, but rather the majority or the essential part or even a significant or highly visible component possible much smaller than the majority (see Mt. 2.3)
“All Israel” then is the Jewish nation as a corporate whole, including by tautological necessity every Messianic Jew, but not necessarily every individual Jew. Whether the proportion of Jews saved will be a majority or ten percent or ninety is a matter of pointless speculation.
This interpretation concords with vv. 17-24 on the grafting in of broken-off non-Messianic Jewish ‘branches,’ with v. 12 on Israel “in it’s fullness” (the same word used regarding Gentiles in v. 25) and with idea of “only a remnant” (less than the totality) being saved (v. 11.5, 9.6 and 9.27).
In response to Spiritboi’s second concern, regarding the nature of this foreseen salvation: it is anticipated, certainly by me (that is what you asked) but, more importantly, by Paul, I believe, that the salvation of “all Israel” will come about by a turning to Yeshua the Messiah, i.e., in accordance with God’s “new covenant cut with the house of Israel” (Jer. 36.36 ff.)
Wright on Jerusalem
Wright had explained his interpretation of the position of Israel today in this very comprehensive article:
http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Jerusalem_New_Testament.pdf
I’m sure it will promote further discussion.
more Wright on Israel
Yes, Jon, thanks for that.
I was greatly encouraged by discovering that Tom Wright supports the recognition of Israel as a “ransom nation,” as I set out above, in his message:
Romans and the theology of Paul (pdf, 230kb)
Tom, however, disagrees strongly with any idea of a large-scale, last-minute returning of Jews just prior to Jesus’ return, which I’m not yet ready to do. This fits with Tom’s overall emphasis on expunging the popular evangelical dramatic end-times scenarios by his insistence on an alternative interpretation for most of the scriptures used by evangelicals to support these scenarios.
However, while I do share his repugnance for the “Left Behind” fever which is so prevalent in the US, I am yet to discover Tom’s thoughts on what Jesus return will actually look like and which scriptures, if any, actually describe this event and so am still not ready to jettison my own present understanding of the drama of Jesus return (which is at odds with the evangelical, pentecostal norm, but still pretty dramatic!)
Even if some of the scriptures he insists have alternative interpretations (such as the “coming of the Son of Man” referring to Jesus ascent to the Ancient of Days, rather than his descent to earth “in power and glory”) I think they also leave abundant room for interpretations based on a “midrash” and “remez” (see my posting on rabbinic modes of interpretation) which the original authors may not have intended as the primary interpretation, but which the Spirit of God may be pointing towards today.
I maintain that at least we might continue to be open to such options, alongside the historical-literal interpretation.