Gentle Reader,
If you have been following my blog (or not! Then why not) Anyway I have tried to present a balanced approached to the subject “Women in the Church” Pastors/deaconess or just church mice?
A lot of you waded in I was deluged with differing opinions (which are like noses, everybody has one …except no nose Mcgerk whose noise was bitten off by a shark but that another story for another time)
The issue seems to be around good and sincere men and women who take the Bible literally and yet can not seem to read the same passage and get the same understanding. I could fix that but most won’t listen because as one of my deacons said “Pastor, don’t confuse me with the facts…my mind is already made up!”
Let me say this first before I tackle the issue before us. These men and women who struggle with issues like this and others are trying to live lives that are in God’s sight Good, kind (for the most part) and honest before God. I am not talking about those few who are so closed minded that if you were to talk with them you could be arrested for breaking and entering.
The problem as I understand it is that so many want to force God into a box (or temple, sound familiar?) Not allowing the Spirit of God to work. They (those who stand firm against women holding positions of leadership) are looking at a text that was written in the 1st century and trying to make it fit into the 21st century. If one is really interested in understanding the Bible (I mean really interested) they must first get their mind around the HISTORICAL CONTEXT!
If American Religious organizations wish to practice sex discrimination the First Amendment provides for and shields them from intrusive government regulations, including hiring practices. Religious freedom is after all a fundamental part of the arrangement of American society.
But to misunderstand Scripture under the guise of “The Bible said it! I believe it! That settles it!” ought to make even to most consertive Christian stand up a shout “Where does it say that in Scripture” and show me where you got that”
To many times men (mostly) have read something or worse heard someone else say such and such and that makes it easy to take a stand on an issue that does not effect them.
For example The Bible speaks of slavery (do we acknowledge that slavery is permissible in the USA today?) Of course not but a long time ago it was. Did the writers of the Scripture advocate the abolishing of slavery altogether? I think that the only thing that would have accomplished would have been the blood of a lot of slaves. No! Gentle Reader, it was not time nor were the average person ready for abolishing slaves however if you want to see haw God dealt with the issue read the little book of “Philemon”
It is in History that we find God working and while it will take some serious soul searching on all of our parts I believe that you will have a better idea about what the role of women ought to be with the “Church”
Tomorrow then we’ll take up this burning issue. Remember that it is in the eyes of the beholders that we see people as they are The rabbis in the times of the first century use to pray barring the women from the inner courts of the Temple and prayed daily “I thank thee, O Lord, that thou hast not made me a Gentile or a woman.” See you next time with the conclusion to this topic. Women in the role of leadership (in the church).
Love,
Denis
Gentle Reader,
We have come a long way in our understanding of what “Is a Christian” As a historian, Linguist, and a student of ancient cultures and languages, I have spent most of my adult life fighting for the right of reasonable people to think for themselves. I want to be allowed to make my decisions based on understanding and reason. I also want the same for you. Everyone has an opinion some are more intelligent than others, some are more reasoned, still more are based on the opinions of others. But and the end of the day. We all would like to think that we are right (about whatever that stirs you in your heart of hearts.)
However as our atheists friends say more damage has been done in the name of religion e.g. Christianity than one could imagine. Their right of course however (there is that little word) It is not Religion that is the cause (religion is man reaching to God) [Another subject for another time] it is man’s inhumanity toward his fellow man! Or in this case, woman. Everyone uses the Bible to “prove” their point or disprove someone else. The bad part of those who use the Bible is that the best they can do is to parrot someone else or point out the discrepancies (I told a atheist one time “I search for discrepancies and contradictions and inconsistencies in the Bible” How many have you found?” In Thirty years I have found none! ” I replied. The problem is that the lack of an educated mind and the willingness to take the short cut or easy road. “The Words of Scripture are for Children The thoughts are for men” Seed of the Women” Dr. Arthur Custance once pointed out It is not enough merely to read one book or study in one area and then decide “this is what I believe!” many come to the forefront and state “The Bible Says it, I believe it, and that settles it!!!”
Dear Gentle Reader, that is the worst kind of education, we have a Book dare I say “the Book of Book” which is able to make our lives and the meaning of life understandable. Many refuse, many more choose to go their own direction. For some they choose rightly but never enter the door of understanding!
You need to understand yourself before you can understand others (even then there are a Myriad on different choices.
We are looking at just one dot in a sea of human understanding, that is the role of women in the ministry.
In brief, we have had in the 1st century a patriarchal society in which women were no more that property they were little better than slaves and sold and treated without regard. This gentle reader was the society in which Jesus of Nazareth came the radical rebel from a little backwater village that would become an historical land make in the future. This peripatetic [itinerant] preacher took the Jewish Religion and elevated it to astronomical proportions.
With difficultly Jesus brought dignity and respect to womankind! Born of a little girl, raised and guided by a woman of amazing strengths and abilities. He worked hand in hand with the women who recognized
First century life was at best [the worst] for women. Women had no rights! Under Hebrew law, a woman was a thing to be bought and sold. Things were little better in Greece and Rome. A woman was owned by her father in Roman law, as an adult to her husband. Both had the power of life and death over her. She could not even speak to a man without his permission.
Little wonder the Apostle Paul instructed women as he did for no self-respecting Jew or Roman of the first century would allow a woman to teach him anything (sounds like today in some areas doesn’t it?). It is remarkable that Paul gave women the recognition that he did. By first century standards, he was a liberal. (Sorry, Ann Coulter, but not all liberals are “godless.”)
I need coffee we’ll take this up tomorrow!
Sorry, to make you wait another day!
Love,
Denis
Church men or mice?
If you expect me to be quiet as a ___ think again!
Gentle Reader,
What I find within Christianity is the desire after becoming Christian is to sit back and watch the life around them (the Christians) to go by with out so much as a “by your leave”
It is not only a shame but to my way of thinking to accept a “gift” and then put away and never even look at it.
The “Gift I am speaking about is not merely Salvation, or grace (important as they are) but the opportunity to “really, really” (2 reallys -Really important stuff to follow) get to know our heavenly Father. Paul prayed in Philippians Chapter 3 and verse 10…
“That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death”
written almost 30 years after Paul meet the risen Christ on the Damascus road! You see Gentle Reader even after all that time Paul’s supreme desire was “To know Him”
The story goes that a little girl was sick in bed and at the foot of the bed was a mirror at the head of the bed was a picture of Jesus. When she felt so ill that all she could do was lift her little head to look in the mirror, she called out to her mother “I can see Jesus!” But when she felt better and could crawl down to the foot of her bed to look at Jesus reflected in the mirror, she exclaimed “I can’t see Jesus any more” Some times Gentle Reader, we see ourselves so big that we don’t see Jesus any more or for that matter what he is trying to do in us and for us.
Now to those verses that some (many) use to deny the Lord His place and what He wants for the body of Christ. “Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Savior of the body.” (Ephesians 5:21-23)
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:11-12)
How can you understand these verses with the verses in Corinthians? Verses where Paul makes provisions for women to prophesy (i.e. preach) in the church . In the book of Romans Paul sends greetings to his friend Phoebe, a deacon. And throughout his ministry he works with women who he mentions by name (Euodia and Priscilla). The respect didn’t start with Paul but Jesus! {For those who really want to “know Him” read Romans the 16th Chapter where Paul speaks of a woman apostle (overlooked by so many in the church today)
“Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.” Verse 7 Chapter 16 of Romans.
No, Gentle Reader, Paul was not giving the “church” license to dominate women. Nor was he telling women in the 21st century that they are second-class citizens who must bow and scrape to the whim of their husbands. Paul’s ultimate hope was for both men and women was that as he put it “We have the mind of Christ” that as God see each of us there is no distinction! He said this in no uncertain terms in the book of Galatians, Chapter 3 and verse 28
“There is neither JEW nor GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Now that Gentle Reader, is radical stuff! That is the way God sees you and me.
The fact is that the “Church which is the body of Christ” was years ahead of the time in its treatment of women. While society was keeping women enslaved,
the church was appointing them to positions of responsibility and leadership. Female deacons and apostles were prominent in the early church, their qualifications for office being set down in 1 Timothy 3:11. (Note: the Greek word often translated as “wives” would be better translated as “women”).
Female preachers were also commonplace . Despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary some Christians still maintain that woman cannot adequately serve as ministers. The problem is that God cannot be locked into the culture of the 1st century whether we like it or not. If God exist (I use the Greek prepositional “if” if and it is true) He is alive today and revealing Himself and continuing to reveal Himself to those who truly want to “know Him”.
Next time we look at evidence how men (good? Perhaps! Misinformed? Definitely! Not well taught, unlearned? Certainly!!!!) Have veered from what God wanted and For those of you who intend to preach this message in your Assemblies I’ll give you facts that are irrefutable that you can check me out! How’s that?
Well it’s dog feeding time for me. See you next time.
Love,
Denis
Part 4
Gentle Reader,
What I had expected to take a couple of sessions has taken me (counting this one) 4. Will this be my last part on the role of women in the church (we’ll see).
Last time I pointed out that fact that were women in positions of leadership in the church. Not only as deacons but in fact (take this home and show your pastor/Bible teacher…you may not be popular after you do.) Apostles!
But something happened (even in the best of organizations) Men interfered (remember it should have taken only 40 days to cross the desert but took instead 40 years. (Men never ask directions! ) “But Denis,” you may say “Pastor says… [fill in the blank] ” Remember what I said earlier about “Everyone wants to be right especially when it comes to our belief system] well pastors for the most part teach what they have been taught in [Cemetery sorry Seminary] some never do anything but read a few book and get a sermon off the Internet and run off to a business meeting (Sorry guys, Pastors [but if (the Greek prepositional if …and it could be true) you have been called by God they you job is 2 fold to “teach and to preach” and to do that you have to do 2 things “Study and pray”!] If your doing anything else then your working for yourself and not for God and you are “cheating those in your church who count on you!
Sorry Gentle Reader, but someone needs to set the record straight And since your best friend won’t tell you…
Now what happened is that somewhere in the 1st century through the 4th century men began to see that they had the power to influence people and control men and women the “clergy so called” so what your about to read can be checked out and if you find something different let me know (because I’ll want to check you out!) We are told that women as ministers were seen as characteristic of heretical groups. No one wants to be called a heretic!. Women were vehemently opposed and suppressed! We have evidence that some women served as heads of widows’ ministries ans even as deacons, bishops, and elders. But these roles steadily were diminished.
The Council of Nicea, in 325 C.E., decreed that woman were no longer to be ordained along with the clergy for leadership roles but were to remain among the laity.
The council of Laodicea, in 352 forbade women from the priesthood and presiding over churches. The council also barred women from approaching the altar.
The Fourth Synod of Carthage, in 398 said woman may not teach men in assembly and may not baptize.
The Council of Chalcedon, in 451, ruled that no women under 40 years of age could be ordained a deacon, and then only close scrutiny.
The secular world Gentle Reader, is ready (for the most part) to give women equal rights. So I have to ask my male counterparts will we do the same? Will God’s own people prevent it? As some quote “proof texts” written in the 1st Century to people living in the 21st century, do we not sound like the southern forbears who tried to stop the abolitionist movement (and later the civil rights movement) by quoting the Bible . Is that not the “blind” leading the “blind”?
The time has expired for men to lord authority over women , whether inside or outside the church. Instead, we should be working together as equals, for in God sight we are “There is neither JEW nor GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
In light of the fact that 90% of the work in most churches is done by women I have a question. Ladies, have you considered a strike?
Love, Denis
