Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
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I transferred this lengthy post from andrewperriman.com because I think it deserves wider consideration. It raises concerns about an article entitled ‘The Canaanite ‘genocide’ and the renewal of creation’. I just read with interest and horror your attempt to sanitize the biblical account of the Conquest of Canaan under the rubric of "new creation." So what’s the difference in God’s supposed project of cleansing the land so that the Israelites could occupy it free from idolatrous Canaanite practice and the Hutu’s attempt to cleanse their land of the elitist Tutsi `cockroaches?’ Or Hitler’s grand dream of ridding the world of the corrupting virus of Jewish vermin so that the Arian super-race might ascend to its heights? You ask early in your defense of Canaanite genocide and excellent and—really—the only important question: namely, how can we "get past our moral revulsion" when reading what Phyllis Trible calls "Texts of Terror?" I would gently suggest that the only way we can do that is to leave our fundamental humanity behind. I looked but failed to find any hint that you believed these were human beings created in the image of God and for whom Jesus died that were being indiscriminately wiped out. You—and other evangelicals who defend a literal reading of those texts—speak of the Canaanites with the dispassion of a pest control operator discussing techniques for eliminating termites. Lest we shrug off too easily the sheer human horror and moral heinousness of genocide—ancient or modern, God-commanded or otherwise—I want to present a haunting portrait of what the warrior God of the Old Testament might well have looked like to the Canaanite or Amalekite about to be devoured by the Israelite sword. It comes from the pen of Elie Wiesel, Nobel Prize winning Jewish author, who was caught up in the Nazi holocaust at sixteen years of age and taken to Auschwitz where he, alone among all of his family, survived. He describes his soul-searing experience upon being unloaded from railway cattle cars and being marched to, as yet, an uncertain fate in the camp.
I ask myself: can I imagine the God I know and worship stoking those flames? Can I envision Jesus at the wheel of that truck, backing it up and pulling the lever which dumps living children and babies into the flames? If this approximates the character, will and purposes of God—past, present or future, then I too, like Elie Wiesel, must turn away in horror from such a Hitler-God. "Over against such a monstrous concept of God," protest Walter Wink, "atheism is an act of pure religion." As I have struggled with this problem of the character and nature of God in the face of these horrific texts over an adult lifetime, I have come to some conclusions which, I admit, cannot be supported from all parts of the Scriptures. For that matter however, very few Christian doctrines enjoy consistent affirmation from all parts of the Scripture such as the doctrine of the trinity or salvation by grace through faith. As I try to resolve the inherent tension between the love and holiness of God, I have come to the following convictions. 1. God is, in His Essential Nature, Always Consistent with Himself. "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed" (Malachi 3:6). When we are confronted with different and apparently contradictory portraits of God’s character, action, and purposes in the Bible, we must assume that the problem lies with human understanding of God’s will and activity, and not with God Himself. There is a difference between what God was saying and human understanding of it. God’s truth is without error but human perception of that truth is not. 2. God Has Disclosed Himself Fully and Finally in Jesus of Nazareth. The unanimous claim of NT authors echoes Paul when he describes Jesus as the very "image of the invisible God" in whom "all the fullness of deity dwelt in bodily form" (Col. 1:15, 18; 2:9; II Cor. 4:6). In Jesus of Nazareth we see "the glory of God in the face of Christ" (II Cor. 4:6). God is the kind of Father who could have a Son like Jesus (II Cor. 1:3). The Christian conviction is that God is like Christ. The author of Hebrews implies that there was a vast difference between the clarity of God’s revelation made known "long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways," and the revelation of His true character through "His Son" who "is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature" (Heb. 1:1-3). We see this process of the unfolding understanding of God’s revelation of himself in the way the New Testament portrays large portions of the Hebrew Scriptures—including many direct commands of God—as being superceded in Christ, thus no longer of binding force for Christians: for example, animal sacrifices, works salvation, circumcision, capital punishment, divorce laws, cultic ritual, Saturday worship. All concepts of God, therefore, must be measured against the full and final standard of God’s revelation of Himself in Jesus, whom He once and for all vindicated as Lord and Christ by raising him from the dead. Paul, who grounds the story of salvation through Christ upon God’s revelation in and through the Hebrew Scriptures, revels in the fact that the old covenant came with such radiant splendor that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory radiating from him. Yet, even as the old came with glory, so the new has come with even greater glory, "the glory of God in the face of Christ" (2 Cor. 3:13; 4:6). The old covenant, for all of its admitted glory, was nevertheless "fading away," while the new is ever enlarging from "glory to glory." The former was "engraved on tablets of stone" but the latter is etched "on tablets of the human heart." The old inaugurated "the ministry of condemnation and death" while the new "abounds in glory" with "the Spirit of the living God." Paul draws a sharp contrast between the "letter that kills" and the "life-giving Spirit." The "veil" that had for so long shrouded the old covenant, obscuring the radiant beauty of the glory of God, "is removed in Christ." The happy result is that "we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory." And what is that glory? "The glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For God, who said, `Light shall shine out of darkness,’ is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ" (2 Cor. 3:1-4:6). 3. The God Revealed in Jesus is Nonviolent. The most incisive critique of God as destroyer occurs in the context of Jesus’ final journey to Jerusalem (Luke 9:51-56). Jesus and his traveling party were not permitted to lodge in Samaritan territory "because He was journeying with His face toward Jerusalem." The historic and bitter animosity between Jews and Samaritans cut both ways. James and John, to whom Jesus had previously given the name "Sons of Thunder" (Mark 3:17), responded typically by asking, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" They were ready to consign all of Samaria to destruction because of the inhospitality of a few. Apparently, it never crossed their minds that not only would the recalcitrant males perish but women, children, babies, and the aged and infirm as well. Their warrant for even imagining God doing such a thing undoubtedly was the story of Sodom and Gomorrah’s fiery demise. Jesus not only rebuked his disciples for entertaining such a thought but replied, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them." Jesus made it crystal-clear that the "kind of spirit" evidenced in such a request, even though it had clear scriptural precedent, was totally alien to his heavenly Father’s character. The spirit that desires to see people burn, for whatever reason, is anti-Christ. Neither did Jesus lend his support to the deeply held conviction that those executed by political authorities or killed in natural disasters were being punished by God (Luke 13:1-5). The God refracted through the prism of Jesus’ person, message, and mission did not come as the anticipated preacher of divine vengeance. His mission was not to call down the fire of God’s wrath upon the unrighteous and those excluded from the blessings of God’s chosen. As John Dear observes, "Jesus begins his public work with the scandalous, radical, earth-shaking news: Our God is nonviolent and is liberating us all, beginning with the poor and oppressed, from our addiction to violence and death." He upon whom the Spirit was conferred and to whom God said, "Thou art my beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased" (Luke 3:21-22), never used his supernatural miracle-working power to hurt, maim, coerce, conquer, or destroy. Jesus is the embodiment of God’s Servant who "will not cry out or raise His voice, nor make His voice heard in the street. A bruised reed He will not break, and a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish" (Isa. 42:3). 4. In His Essential Nature, God is `Holy Love.’ Because God is Holy, He hates sin. Because He is Love, He loves sinners. His wrath is directed against sin because sin destroys the object of His love: namely, humankind. It is because God loves passionately that His wrath burns hotly against sin. God loves sinners with eternal, unconditional, and unchangeable love (John 3:16). God’s love does not represent a change in His attitude because of Christ, but rather a full revelation of His character through Christ. There is nothing that humans can ever do which, in and of itself, will change God’s love into hate, or mark an end to His patience (Romans 2:4-11). The problem of estrangement from God has always been on people’s part, never on God’s. His heart has always been for humankind, reaching out to people in redemptive love: "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself" (II Cor. 5:19). 5. It is sin and not God that Destroys. The "wrath of God" is against "all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men," not against men themselves (Romans 1:18-33). God’s love is experienced as wrath when men "exchange" the truth of God for a lie (1:23, 25), and thus bind themselves to that which God hates. Then God "gives them over," in freedom, to become what they have chosen to be (1:24, 26, 28). Consequently, they suffer the "wages of sin which is death" (Rom. 6:23). God’s wrath must not be seen as the dark side of God’s nature, nor does it signal the end of His patience with people. God’s wrath is the necessary corollary to his great love. Death was never a part of God’s original intention for humans or for His creation: neither will it be a part of the "new heavens and new earth" (Rev. 21:1ff.). Death came into the world through sin (Rom. 5:12ff.). Death is an "enemy:" the "last enemy" to be destroyed by Christ (I Cor. 15:20-28). God does not do evil that good may come, nor does He utilize "the enemy" for His own purposes. God’s love is so great that he has given to human beings full freedom to choose their own destiny. This is a wonderful and yet terrible potentiality; for when people turn away from God and bind themselves to that which God hates, then God’s love is experienced as wrath. For example, there is one sun in the heavens. It melts butter but hardens clay. Even so, God is One in holy love. Whether humans experience God in the melting creativity of holy love or in the hardening destruction of wrath depends entirely upon their response to the eternal, unconditional, and never changing grace of God. If they bind themselves to sin unrepentantly and irrevocably, then they too will be finally subject to the wrath of God, and will hear those fateful words on the day of judgment: "Depart from Me, you who keep on practicing lawlessness" (Matt. 7:23). Here is the good news of the gospel: after sin has run its course, resulting in death, the God who raised up Jesus is the One who continues to raise, in the newness of life, those who are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1-9). 6. God’s Love is Revealed Most Compellingly On The Cross. If ours is a Christ-like God, then we can categorically affirm that God is not a killer. He is not involved in punitive, redemptive, or sacred violence. Violence is Satan’s business (John 8:44). The wages of sin is [violent] death (Rom. 3:10-23; 6:23). Rather than sinners being exterminated, children dashed to pieces and wives raped in the "day of the Lord’s coming, cruel, with fury and burning anger," as envisioned by Isaiah (12:9-16), God in Christ allowed Himself to be violently seized, beaten, and crucified. God would rather die than destroy, would rather die than damn, would rather be crucified than hurt or harm the littlest child, and was. Instead of destroying sinners God allowed Himself in and through His Son to be slain by sinners on the cross. "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:8). Jesus did not die to appease the wrath of an angry God but to demonstrate the love of a gracious God. Jesus did not die to earn God’s forgiveness but to express it. Jesus’ death was not a sacrifice offered up by humans to God but by God to humans! God is saying through the sacrifice of Christ: "I love you this much!" Jesus did not die to change God’s mind about humans but to change people’s mind about God. God’s mind was, and forevermore shall be, one of unremitting love for human beings, Canaanites included. God’s attitude toward sinners is best seen in how Jesus treated Judas. Even though he knew what was in Judas’ heart and what Judas was about to do, he loved him to the end. His love was expressed through gentle warnings, by making him the guest of honor at the Last Supper, by offering him—along with the other disciples—the cup of forgiveness, and by greeting him in the Garden of betrayal as "friend". What is hell? It is to reject Christ and yet hear His words calling out for all eternity, "Friend, Friend, Friend." Conversely, what is heaven? It is to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord, and hear His greeting through all eternity, "Friend, Friend, Friend." 7. So what about `Scriptural Authority?’ What makes a Christian a Christian as opposed to a Jew, at least in part, is precisely a Christocentric orientation toward the Hebrew Scriptures. In opposition to the second century heretic Marcion who sought to dispense with the Old Testament altogether, believers from apostolic times to the present take its testimony with all seriousness, especially since “these are the Scriptures that testify about [Jesus]” (John 5:39). Yet at the same time they affirm that the full and final revelation of God’s nature and character is to be found “written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts” (2 Cor 3:3). The primary purpose of “the holy Scriptures,” claims Paul in another context, is “to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim 3:15). Our final authority in exegeting "texts of terror," then, is Jesus to whom the Scriptures give a faithful and true witness, attested by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us. Calvin taught that “It is Christ alone on whom … faith ought to look… . [our faith ought] to be fixed on Christ.” John Stott reminds us that “Our Christian conviction is that the Bible has both authority and relevance … and that the secret of both is Jesus Christ.” For John Wesley, the sun and center of God’s character, incarnate in Jesus of Nazareth, is the kind of generative agape love that sees every person as a choice and chosen human being, fashioned in God’s own image, and imbued with his life-giving spirit. It is a love that sees people as worthy of the supreme act of divine self-giving love, even the gift of God’s “one and only son” (John 3:16). The sanctify of human life established in creation, reaffirmed after the flood, and codified in the sixth commandment (“you shall not kill”), reaches its ultimate affirmation in Jesus. Alice McDermott rightly points out that “the incredible notion of God made flesh … changing forever the fate of humankind … cannot logically be sustained, if any single life [is] expendable. Any life, under any circumstances… . If any one life can be dismissed as meaningless, so too can the life of Christ.” Note: A more complete discussion of this issue can be found in C. S. Cowles, et. al, "Show Them No Mercy: 4 Views on God and Canaanite Genocide" (Zondervan, 2003). |
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
I see what you are saying about how Jesus is the true representation of God. However, Jesus affirmed the old testament tradition and he didn’t feel the need to explain away Israel’s violent past. He quotes and refers to the very OT books that explain the Canaanite genocide. To me Jesus affirms the OT narrative and the main character in that narrative, that is the one he calls Father.
Maybe the Israel’s violent past reflects a nation wrestling with being a ‘called’ nation for the sake of other nations in a time of territorial war and violence. They have this beautiful call but need land and believe God has promised them Canaan. Being less powerful than the Canaanites they find their occupation of their territory a miracle.
So maybe their conception of God was a little wack, and they did things in God’s name that probably wasn’t God’s desire. But God appeared to let all this happen and not intervene except maybe to save them so that his people could continue in their calling.
Its also interesting to read some of the archaelogical research done on the OT and the evidence for the defeat of the Canaanites. Whatever, happenned in history, the narrative made sense of these events.
I just dont think one can write off the OT narrative that easily. Jesus didnt.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Ryan: In Jesus’s time of course, the Jews had not collected the writings of the Torah together. Jesus referred to several texts and confirmed laws of the Torah but I wasn’t aware that he quoted from scriptures explaining the Canaanite genocides.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Thank you for this very thorough response to my ‘sanitization’ of the Conquest of Canaan. I have a number of comments in response to some particular points in your post, though I must say first that your use of the word ‘sanitize’ seems ironic: my argument is that from a hermeneutical point of view we have to allow the episode to stand in the narrative whether we like it or not; you, on the other hand, want to obscure it by reinterpreting the whole of the Old Testament in the light of an idealized (and frankly post-biblical) christology. Who is really doing the sanitizing here? Anyway, the details…
God is, in His Essential Nature, Always Consistent with Himself.
Yes, in principle, but it is always risky to take upon ourselves the task of deciding what that essential nature is. You quote Malachi 3:6, but this belongs to a prophecy of destruction against the unrighteous in Israel, which is carried over into the New Testament and applied to the circumstances of a nation facing destruction by Rome. There is a tension in the book between God’s faithfulness towards his people (Mal. 3:6-12) and the prospect of judgment, but this is certainly not resolved in favour of a benign understanding of God who would not hurt a fly.
God Has Disclosed Himself Fully and Finally in Jesus of Nazareth.
Agreed, but…
The God Revealed in Jesus is Nonviolent.
I don’t think it’s as simple as that. How do we deal, for example, with Matthew 10:34-38?
Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Jesus did not mean this ‘sword’ to be understood metaphorically. He alludes here to Old Testament passages (cf. Jer. 12:12; Mic. 7:6) that speak of judgment against unrighteous Israel in the form of war (in contrast to a false sense of peace and security). That must be understood as a divine judgment and in the context of first century Judaism it took the form of the war against Rome and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Jesus foresaw these violent events and understood them as in some sense an outworking of the wrath of God.
Love for one’s enemy, the non-violent response, is called for from his followers as the right way for righteous Israel to respond to aggression whether from the Jews or from Rome. Hence the cross. Hence the refusal to bring destruction upon the Samaritans. The additional statements that you quote from Luke 9:55 are textually suspect: ‘You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.’ But in any case, the fact that Jesus came to save rather than destroy cannot be taken to mean that when destruction comes God is not to blame….
Neither did Jesus lend his support to the deeply held conviction that those executed by political authorities or killed in natural disasters were being punished by God (Luke 13:1-5).
To my mind this is a common misreading - and indeed sanitization - of the text. Jesus’ point is not that these events were not to be regarded as divine punishment. What he says is that those who died were not worse sinners than all the other Galileans - and that if the rest of them do not repent, they will ‘all likewise perish’. The same for those killed by the collapse of the tower in Jerusalem. This again is his warning that unrepentant Israel will be punished by God by the Roman sword or through the collapse of Jerusalem.
So I disagree with the argument that ‘Jesus begins his public work with the scandalous, radical, earth-shaking news: Our God is nonviolent and is liberating us all, beginning with the poor and oppressed, from our addiction to violence and death.’ Like John the Baptist, Jesus announces the coming of God as king to judge his people. What Jesus adds to this is the hope of a restored community, emerging through the impending eschatological crisis, that exists and behaves on the basis of faith in YHWH rather than on the basis of fear or legalism or violence. The church, therefore, is certainly called to respond to threatening circumstances through non-violence, to love its enemies, to turn the other cheek. But I don’t think we can honestly tell the biblical story without at least acknowledging that for Jesus (as for the whole prophetic tradition) God reserved the right to punish his people through foreign aggression.
The “wrath of God” is against “all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,” not against men themselves (Romans 1:18-33).
So what’s all the following about then?
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. (Rom. 2:5-11)
Not everyone will agree with me that ‘wrath and fury’ should be understood just as concretely and historically as they are in the Old Testament (ie. that Paul has in mind judgment on Jerusalem and an analogous judgment on the pagan world). But surely we cannot escape the conclusion that Paul regards the ‘wrath of God’ as punishment in the form of ‘tribulation and distress’ intentionally directed against people who ‘obey unrighteousness’. Or are you just picking out the bits of Paul that support your view of things?
So it seems to me that the idea that God punishes a sinful people through military disaster runs right through the Old Testament and into the New Testament. Indeed, it is a fundamental presupposition of Jesus’ ministry: he seeks to save Israel from the final destruction of divine judgment. Interwoven into this story about Israel, however, is a story about the enemies of YHWH who likewise do not escape comparable punishment (so Habakkuk argues, for example). It’s against this background that we have to read the accounts of the entry into Canaan, whatever we may choose to make of them historically. As narrative they are, on the one hand, part of the fulfilment of the seminal promise to Abraham; and they presuppose, on the other, a pervasive biblical understanding that God punishes idolatry and wickedness.
My concern is, in the first place, that we read the narrative for what it is, which means acknowledging the historical, theological, and moral problems that arise not only in the Old Testament but also in the New. This is not about defending a ‘literal reading of those texts’ - nor is it about condoning genocide or diminishing the horror of war. What I am wary of is dismissing these texts on the basis of modern sensibilities because we risk then distorting the narrative as a whole or in other areas, which is what I think you have done with your reading of the Gospels.
Personally, I would rather let the conquest narratives stand as an affront to our complacent moralizing, our sense of theological superiority, than suppress them - that seems to me dishonest. There is certainly a conversation to be had about the implications of letting them stand - of recognizing the integrity of the biblical narrative. I think Ryan’s comment about Israel making sense of its calling under dangerous conditions is helpful - it respects the historical character of scripture. But that is another matter.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Andrew, you write: “Personally, I would rather let the conquest narratives stand as an affront to our complacent moralizing, our sense of theological superiority, than suppress them - that seems to me dishonest.” I am not for “complacent moralizing” or a “sense of theological superiority” (by which I assume you mean the sense of some people today that we automatically know better than did pre-moderns). However, I’m not sure these are the issues for followers of Jesus who struggle to reconcile the conquest narratives and the story of Jesus.
The early followers of Jesus who wrote the New Testament were pre-moderns. They probably did not have a “sense of theological superiority” over the writers of the Hebrew scriptures (though they did have the advantage of knowing the story of Jesus, both his teachings and his deeds). When contemporary readers hear a discrepancy on the subject of violence between the Gospels and the conquest narratives, they are hearing a difference between two pre-modern witnesses; contemporary readers are not necessarily assuming their own “theological superiority” over the writers of the Hebrew scriptures.
And far from “complacent moralizing,” taking seriously the ethic taught and practiced by Jesus in the Gospels is what leads some of us to question the conquest narratives. It is because we are not reading this ethic complacently that it stands in such stark contrast to the conquest narratives. It seems to me that the conquest narratives do “stand as an affront”—to the ethic of Jesus! (To which someone may reply by echoing a post above that notes Jesus affirmed the Hebrew scriptures; I am not aware, however, of any affirmation by Jesus of the conquest narratives.)
I am not suggesting that we “sanitize” or “suppress” the conquest narratives. I am suggesting that we read biblical texts honestly, put them in conversation with one another, and then simply admit when we hear what Richard Hays calls “irreconcilable tensions” (Hays argues that the New Testament “trumps” the Old Testament at these times). David Bartlett has suggested that “a lover’s quarrel” with biblical texts is sometimes appropriate; I think the Gospels invite such a quarrel with texts that describe holy war and/or genocide. This approach allows these difficult texts to “stand” without also interpreting them as prescriptive for today.
Still, questions about whether or not the conquest narratives impugn God’s character remain. As you say, “There is certainly a conversation to be had about the implications of letting them stand.” One of these implications seems to be that God is not nonviolent. I agree with you that Scripture shows God to be free to use violence—as well as free to use nonviolence. (In my mind, it does not follow from God’s freedom to be violent that God wants Christians to do violence.) However, the conquest narratives do not merely depict God as free to make use of violent means; rather, they describe God as sanctioning the wholesale slaughter of men, women, and children. They are therefore deeply problematic.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Josh, my point about ‘complacent moralizing’ and ‘theological superiority’ was not so much that we should not automatically assume that we know better than the ancients. It was directed more against the lazy assumption that Christianity - or the prevailing historical form of Christianity - is morally or theologically superior to other belief systems or ideologies - Islam, for example, or secular humanism.
When contemporary readers hear a discrepancy on the subject of violence between the Gospels and the conquest narratives…
My argument in the previous comment was that there is perhaps much less of a discrepancy than modern, enlightened, liberalized readers like to think. Certainly Jesus would never have advocated violence as a means of bringing about the reign of God over his people. But I think it is difficult to deny that he saw military-political destruction as an expression of the judgment of God. This is not just about the conquest narratives. The old covenant, defined by Torah, interpreted by the prophets, is built on this premise. The Babylonian invasion and the exile, which are so central to the theology of the prophets, are understood to be the outworking of God’s anger against a sinful people. In this argument Israel certainly takes centre-stage, but it is equally affirmed that YHWH will destroy his enemies in similar fashion.
I think that we have to allow that in some regard this covenantal arrangement is not fully ended until the defeat of Greek-Roman paganism. That is when the logic of judgment on rebellious Israel, judgment on the enemies of YHWH, and vindication of the righteous finally works itself out. That long dénouement overlaps with the inauguration of a new covenant for the people of God which does not require judgment by violence, whether directed towards the church or towards the enemies of the church. But Jesus is as much a prophet to old covenant Israel as he is the crucified Lord of the new covenant people of the Spirit - and I don’t really see an irreconcilable tension here. At least, if we attempt to pull out the thread of the conquest narrative, the whole of Old Testament theology is likely to unravel.
We do not know what Jesus thought of the conquest of Canaan, but the event is integral to the fulfilment of the old covenant - there is no alternative narrative of entry into the land that God had promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus does not condemn Israel for having seized the land by force; he condemns Israel for failing to live up to the standards of the covenant.
But it appears, in the end, that we are more or less in agreement. The moral and theological problems remain - and perhaps they should be a thorn-in-the-flesh to us. I don’t think that we can with integrity affirm the ideal character of Jesus without acknowledging the part that violence places in the biblical story, which is Jesus’ story. The calling of the new covenant people of God, however, is absolutely to renounce violence, to demonstrate to the world that within the confines of new creation justice can be achieved by peaceful and compassionate means, even if at times that will require extreme self-giving.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Andrew, thanks for your generous reply to my comment on this difficult subject. A few additional remarks:
1) Your clarification of what you meant by "moral complacency" and "theological superiority" is helpful. I agree that it is important for Christians not to assume that their convictions are superior to those held by non-Christians. I am reminded of the postmodern critique of metanarratives as imperialistic.
2) Perhaps apparent discrepancies between the Old Testament and the New Testament on this subject are exaggerated. I am coming out of a background in which the idea that there were any discrepancies between the two testaments was condemned. At this time, I am content to accept that there is both continuity and discontinuity between the OT and NT (N.T. Wright’s work has been helpful to me here). I was quoting Richard Hays when I wrote of "irreconcilable tensions"; in context, Hays is discussing Christian ethics. He is arguing that the NT’s attitude toward the use of violence by God’s people is different than the OT’s attitude toward the use of violence by God’s people. This difference does not rule out the possibility of interpreting Rome’s violence against Jerusalem as God’s judgment; it would seem to fit with Paul’s instruction in Romans 12 to leave vengeance (and its violence) to God. It’s an exegetically sound conclusion. However, it poses missiological problems. Here in the U.S., some preachers boldly called 9/11 and Katrina God’s judgment on America; in doing so, they gave non-Christians and nominal Christians more reasons to avoid the church.
3) I most appreciate your last paragraph:
But it appears, in the end, that we are more or less in agreement. The moral and theological problems remain - and perhaps they should be a thorn-in-the-flesh to us. I don’t think that we can with integrity affirm the ideal character of Jesus without acknowledging the part that violence places in the biblical story, which is Jesus’ story. The calling of the new covenant people of God, however, is absolutely to renounce violence, to demonstrate to the world that within the confines of new creation justice can be achieved by peaceful and compassionate means, even if at times that will require extreme self-giving.
Violence is an undeniable part of the biblical story (which is part of what makes it realistic—we live in an undeniably violent world, after all). Followers of Jesus are called to renounce this violence. Though Jesus does not restate or otherwise affirm them (thankfully), retaining the conquest narratives of the OT remains necessary, as the story of Israel would make less narrative sense without them. They are descriptive rather than prescriptive, however. Still remaining is the problem of what they communicate about God’s character—here they are "a thorn-in-the-flesh to us."
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
“The early followers of Jesus who wrote the New Testament were pre-moderns. They probably did not have a “sense of theological superiority” over the writers of the Hebrew scriptures…”
Could be. But then again the word “Yahweh” appears nowhere in the New Testament. That could be evidence of the attitude of the New Testament writers.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
CS, I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed your chapter in ‘Show Them No Mercy’. The only thing that I think is missing in your presentation - or, at least, could be greatly expanded on - pertains to this whole area of ‘Scriptural authority’.
Coming from an anabaptist perspective, I wonder if a more appropriate way to respond to the concern that your view challenges ‘Scriptural authority’ is to say, “Damn, right!” Jesus is the only authority around here.
Furthermore, it’s only a wooden and overly ‘systematic’ approach to the Bible that presumes it - as a whole - presents God as violent or peaceful. Perhaps a more reverent and critical hermeneutic would see numerous threads, options, narratives and tracks through scripture. Some of these, it seems to me, actually interact with and critique each other. What is important to me, is not the authority of the Bible, but submitting to Jesus and following the track that he walks within.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
In no particular order I’d only make the following comments.
1. the Bible narrative clearly depicts a jealous, wrathful God (YHWH) fully capable of using violence to protect Israel, and also to punish Israel. And sinners, particularly idolators, in general. The message in the OT is clear: God is protective; God will cajole, implore and fully enable His people to succeed in military confrontations. God insists on having complete victories; not mere shallow triumphs. There is NO WAY to escape this part of the narrative because it is so prevalent throughout the OT. God will also lift His protective covering, allowing the enemies of His people to bring Israel into bondage; to destroy their temple; to ransack Jerusalem; to all but destroy the Israelites. But - and this is important - God is FAITHFUL to His Word - His covenant with the Israelites - and never lifts His hand of grace from them. The Israelites simply must REPENT, turn away from their unrighteous, unGodly ways, re-align themselves to a place of worship (obedience) and complete understanding of how faithful and awesome God is, and that is when they prosper. Unfortunately, there are not too many places in the narrative of the OT where this happens. Which is why God sent Jesus…
2. the God of the narrative of the NT is not any different. The narrative is different. Jesus is God in the flesh, conceived and brought to earth to provide the PERFECT way out for a persistently disobedient and unrepentent population of Israelites. And the entire world! The narrative of the NT focuses much more on LOVE and the SPIRITUAL blessings of God. The impartation of the Trinity is a huge quantum leap that distinguishes the NT from the OT in so many ways that the comparisons are really more revelational than relational… and perfect in every way. As many (not here) have pointed out, that is why the Bible really fully defends itself; it is impossible to read the Word with an open consciousness and not be convicted of God’s incredible righteousness and the imperative for us to worship and honor Him. But that’s a rabbit trail I won’t go down just now.
3. The God - principally in and through Jesus and the Holy Spirit - of the NT is in NO WAY posterior to the YHWH of the OT. God never changes… He exists outside of time anyway! The "violence" of the "genocide of the Canaanites" or, for that matter, of the defeated Amalachites, et al. all vanquished - repeatedly - throughout the narrative of the OT is wholly consistent with Jesus and his teachings. Again, the narrative has simply changed. God is still omniscient, omnipotent, always faithful, expecting (and deserving of) all honor and praise, AND most loving and full of grace.
4. The fact that there is a paradigm shift in the narrative of the Bible, or rather, a paradigm shift between the OT narrative and the NT narrative, in no way compromises or alters the legitimacy of the Jesus teachings or the OT teachings. In fact, they are “married” - if you will - in Revelation when there is CLEARLY the mother of all eschatological battles - terrible violence - which will result in the violent decimation of humanity on a scale not seen even in the OT. Again, the tremendous wisdom and the totality of the narrative of the Bible completes itself - is made perfect - and if some want to instead describe this as "tension" sobeit, but I would simply refer to it as "it is what it is." What about the flood? Was that not God in one of His most "violent" decisions about how to punish a fallen, unrighteous, unrepentant and disobedient people? YHWH, in delivering Jesus and the Holy Spirit to us, simply offered us a better - actually a perfect - covenant. And that is the focus of the NT.
5. Jesus clearly focuses His ministry on preaching the Kingdom of God, and on teaching us how the Kingdom has arrived with His manifestation and subsequent resurrection and also with the impartation of the Holy Spirit. But the message in his teachings was clear: violence was not to be the means by which God’s people, under the new covenant, operated. The covenant was primarily of LOVE, and while we are supposed to walk in perfect love and righteousness, we are ASSURED by Jesus himself that violence and oppression and great evil will confront us daily. But we are now personally fully equipped to handle all of these tribulations thanks to God’s awesome NT plan and Jesus’ teachings.
“Texts of terror” might be an uninformed way of interpreting the narratives of the Bible. But in reality the Bible simply tells - in great detail and with great precision and with overwhelming imagery and passion - the story of God’s creation who (or that?), when first confronted by evil, was tempted, fell far from grace, and has been struggling ever since to be restored to the place of righteousness that will only become fully manifest forever when Jesus returns to claim his Bride.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
F.H.L., some comments on your comments, by number:
1. I don’t think your comment that the OT depicts God using violence has been denied in this thread. The issue being debated here is how to reconcile this witness with the NT witness. Simply claiming that there is no tension between these two witnesses is not an argument. From the early church forward, many Christian interpreters have struggled to reconcile stories of God sanctioning holy war and/or genocide with the story of Jesus—whose protagonist teaches enemy-love (Matthew 5-7) and later practices it on the cross, dying for his enemies instead of killing them.
2. As you say, the OT narrative and the NT narrative are different. One of the ways they differ is in their depiction of God. They describe the same God (because there is only one), but their descriptions differ.
3. Again, I think you miss the point when you point out that "God never changes." The question is this: Which picture of this unchanging God is more truthful—the one we find in the conquest narratives, or the one we find in Jesus? And, again, simply asserting that the "’violence’ of the ‘genocide of the Canaanites’ or, for that matter, of the defeated Amalachites, et al. all vanquished - repeatedly - throughout the narrative of the OT is wholly consistent with Jesus and his teachings" is not an argument. How is killing one’s enemies (and their children) "wholly consistent" with loving them and with welcoming children? (And why do you put the word "violence" in quotation marks?)
4. I’m not sure what you mean when you write of the "legitimacy of…the OT teachings." Are you suggesting that these teachings all remain in force—that the conquest narratives are not only descriptive of the past, but also prescriptive for the present? Are you for slaughtering men, women, and children? It seems to me that this discussion is about how to interpret these texts as 21st-century followers of Jesus, not about somehow proving their "legitimacy." (Also, your literalist and futurist interpretation of Revelation is questionable.)
5. Jesus does proclaim that the kingdom of God has dawned. Yet if it is a reign of love (as you say), then what do we do with texts that show God acting in unloving ways? Do we call holy war/genocide loving? If so, then is it consistent for us to condemn the holy war and genocide of our own day?
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Hey Josh:
I hope I can reply meaningfully to your comments.
Let me start with the thesis that God Himself never changes. Nor does His Word. Nor do His commandments. He cannot lie. He exists outside of time. He is ever faithful. He is omniscient. He is omnipresent. Hopefully, nobody would disagree with these tenets.
The OT narratives depict - primarily - the relationship between God and His chosen people, the descendents of Abraham, the Israelites. The people YHWH had a covenant with. God loved and was faithful to the Israelites, but they - as humans so do - were not faithful to God, YHWH, the Lord. I cannot pretend to know why God during those times chose to administer his relationship with the Israelites in the manner that He did, meaning, namely, that He waxed between enabling His covenantally-connected people to overcome incredible odds vs. their enemies in horrific battles, while yet at other times in the narrative(s) lifting His hand allowing enemies of the Israelites to prevail when they were disobedient. If this sounds like an over-simplified depiction of the relationship between God and the Israelites then please permit me this indulgence for the sake of brevity.
But in spite of this administrative manner, God was clearly: Always faithful; Never lied; Never broke His covenantal Word or “obligations.” He loved the Israelites.
The unmistakable manner in which God and the Israelites related to each other in the OT narrative was basically as a stern father would relate to his children. I stipulate here and now that God was jealous of His people, demanding obedience and clearly not in any way – in the OT narrative – obligated to protect or remain faithful to the remainder of humanity existing at the time. Call the relationship “tough love,” without risking being irreverent.
God’s creation – meaning humans – has free will. I’m going to suppose that God, existing outside of time, knew at some point early on (in our timeframe) that the “tough love” approach would not work – was too difficult - for His creation to ever come to the place of honoring and worshipping Him as He intended with Adam in the Garden. The hundreds of years prior to Jesus were a very bleak period of history for mankind. Then, enter the brilliant plan of salvation and grace and love that was Jesus.
The NT proposition, exegetically speaking, was of a new covenant. No more “tough love.” I won’t explain the obvious since everybody reading this knows what the “new covenant” is and the NT narrative. But I will simply state one more time that the essence of Jesus’ message was The Kingdom of God; that it had come, that the Holy Spirit (the enabler) would empower those who became “citizens” of the Kingdom, and that repentance and righteousness were imperative to enter the Kingdom, and that peace and joy were the benefits of “living” – abiding - in the Kingdom.
So, the narrative is clearly different in the NT. The Kingdom message is clearly not the OT “tough love” approach that God offers – since Jesus arrival - for His people to come into a place of rightstanding with God. No animal sacrifices (Jesus was the eternal sacrificial lamb)… no killing and wiping out your enemies (love your enemy[ies])…
I simply don’t see the tension between how God chose to administer his relationship with his people after the Garden and before Jesus, and after Jesus. The new covenant is a perfection of the old covenant. The door is open for everybody.
Entering and remaining a citizen of the Kingdom of God here on earth is not easy and is guaranteed (by Jesus himself) to be fraught with great trials and difficulties. Free will is an unruly gift. People – more than ever – who are not citizens of the Kingdom are dangerous, motivated by hate, and are to varying degrees myopic or completely blind to the Kingdom and its requirements and rewards.
I believe that the purpose of the OT writings is to portray God as ever faithful to those he has covenant with. Today, those are the citizens of His Kingdom. They depict a jealous and mighty Lord who performs incredible miracles for His people, to the exclusion of those who He is not in covenant with. He is a loving, albeit “tough loving” God.
The NT – Jesus – brings the dawn of a new relationship with YHWH. Becoming and remaining a citizen of the Kingdom of God is not easy, yet the fact that it has become open to EVERYBODY and that the dispensation of LOVE is so central (but ONLY after repentance and righteousness) is certainly – I think – more inspiring to most of humanity. And a hallmark – as you point out – is that the violence of genocidal war and destruction is buried… but not lost altogether.
What do I mean by that last statement? I mean that countries – peoples – and specifically Israel, will engage in battles for survival in the future against people who are not of the Kingdom and also – as Revelation depicts – there will be massive war and destruction in the future that ultimately heralds in the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven to earth. Many will perish, I imagine, including those who are citizens of the Kingdom of God.
The Bible is what it is: A bi-testamentary book that serves the purpose of inspiring and instructing us in the ways of righteousness before our God. Sometimes, I think that people think too much about the plain messages and truth of the Bible, to what end I don’t know. This would seem like one of those instances. The Bible surely contains many mysteries, but one of them isn’t, I believe, the notional dichotomy between the God of the OT and the God of the NT. YHWH, the Lord, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are unchangeable and their promises are eternal as are their personalities.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
F.H.L.:
I’m not sure how best to respond to your lengthy comment; however, I’m concerned that offering no reply might be misconstrued as acknowledgement of the strength of your points.
1) You write: “Let me start with the thesis that God Himself never changes. Nor does His Word. Nor do His commandments. He cannot lie. He exists outside of time. He is ever faithful. He is omniscient. He is omnipresent. Hopefully, nobody would disagree with these tenets.” I find it curious that you begin a comment about biblical interpretation not with the biblical narrative, but with a “thesis” that consists of a series of absolute claims that largely echo Hellenistic philosophy.
2) In your next three paragraphs you do appeal to the biblical narrative (though to few, if any, specific texts). In these paragraphs, you attempt to summarize the entire OT. It seems to me that such an effort is doomed to reductionism from the start. You provide a hint that you are aware of as much when you write, “If this sounds like an over-simplified depiction of the relationship between God and the Israelites then please permit me this indulgence for the sake of brevity.” Why not instead simply focus on the OT texts in question in this thread—the conquest narratives?
3) In these three paragraphs, you identify the problem with which some of us have been wrestling—but you don’t seem to be aware of it. First, you write, “[God] loved the Israelites”; then, you write, “I stipulate here and now that God was jealous of His people, demanding obedience and clearly not in any way – in the OT narrative – obligated to protect or remain faithful to the remainder of humanity existing at the time.” Without affirming the questionable interpretation you offer in your second sentence, I would suggest that this way of putting it raises similar questions to those with which some of us have been wrestling: Is God love if God loves some people but not others? If the conquest narratives depict a God who loves some people but not others, then is this picture consistent with God’s revelation in Jesus Christ, as he is depicted in the NT?
4) You then offer three paragraphs on the NT. I am doubtful that your use of the word “obvious” in reference to the NT will be appreciated here. Is it likely that the meanings of texts written almost two thousand years ago in a very different context will be “obvious” to contemporary Westerners? Why engage in conversation about these texts if they are?
5) Then you confess, “I simply don’t see the tension between how God chose to administer his relationship with his people after the Garden and before Jesus, and after Jesus.” The “tension” that has been referred to in this thread is between the OT’s attitude toward violence and the NT’s attitude toward violence. Joshua 6:21 reads, “Then [the Israelites] devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys.” Jesus says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” (Matthew 5:43-44). Here there is tension between the moral vision of the OT and the moral vision of the NT. Moreover, because some holy war/genocide texts depict God sanctioning this wholesale slaughter (see, for example, Joshua 8:27), God’s character is at issue. Is this depiction of God’s nature entirely accurate, or does Jesus more exactly reveal God’s nature—as Hebrews 1:1-3a indicates?
6) Sadly, you then draw a predictable conclusion from your biblicist reading of Scripture: “I mean that countries – peoples – and specifically Israel, will engage in battles for survival in the future against people who are not of the Kingdom and also – as Revelation depicts – there will be massive war and destruction in the future that ultimately heralds in the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven to earth. Many will perish, I imagine, including those who are citizens of the Kingdom of God.” Armed with this interpretation, why would we even try to be peacemakers? Why not cheer the recent bloody images coming out of Gaza? Perhaps they are signs that “the Kingdom of Heaven” is almost here! No need for mourning—after all, God sometimes sanctions the killing of children! Thankfully, there are other ways to interpret the book of Revelation than your futurist reading. To start, we should take seriously John’s insistence that what he wrote about “must soon take place” (Revelation 1:1; see also 1:3). A responsible interpretation will suggest that much of what is envisioned in Revelation has already taken place, and that it has more to do with ancient Rome than with the modern secular nation-state of Israel.
7) In conclusion, you write: “The Bible surely contains many mysteries, but one of them isn’t, I believe, the notional dichotomy between the God of the OT and the God of the NT. YHWH, the Lord, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are unchangeable and their promises are eternal as are their personalities.” I do not believe that there is a “notional dichotomy between the God of the OT and the God of the NT” (I’m not advocating Marcionism). I do believe that the NT provides a clearer picture of God than does the OT—if for no other reason than the simple fact that the NT writers had the advantage of the teaching and example of God’s supreme revelation, Jesus, at their disposal.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Hi Josh:
Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my probably too-lengthy posting. Here are my thoughts:
1) You write: “Let me start with the thesis that God Himself never changes. Nor does His Word. Nor do His commandments. He cannot lie. He exists outside of time. He is ever faithful. He is omniscient. He is omnipresent. Hopefully, nobody would disagree with these tenets.” I find it curious that you begin a comment about biblical interpretation not with the biblical narrative, but with a “thesis” that consists of a series of absolute claims that largely echo Hellenistic philosophy.
Josh, the over-arching “philosophy” stated is – I believe – a pure biblical philosophy, not dependent on greek interpretation or transformation. But this seems to be a bit of an argumentative statement on your part. My premise in making this “thesis” is that God is not different today than he was yesterday (or many yesterdays ago); i.e., in the OT or NT times.
2) In your next three paragraphs you do appeal to the biblical narrative (though to few, if any, specific texts). In these paragraphs, you attempt to summarize the entire OT. It seems to me that such an effort is doomed to reductionism from the start. You provide a hint that you are aware of as much when you write, “If this sounds like an over-simplified depiction of the relationship between God and the Israelites then please permit me this indulgence for the sake of brevity.” Why not instead simply focus on the OT texts in question in this thread—the conquest narratives?
OK, a fair point, albeit one that I thought I adequately footnoted. My bad.
3) In these three paragraphs, you identify the problem with which some of us have been wrestling—but you don’t seem to be aware of it. First, you write, “[God] loved the Israelites”; then, you write, “I stipulate here and now that God was jealous of His people, demanding obedience and clearly not in any way – in the OT narrative – obligated to protect or remain faithful to the remainder of humanity existing at the time.” Without affirming the questionable interpretation you offer in your second sentence, I would suggest that this way of putting it raises similar questions to those with which some of us have been wrestling: Is God love if God loves some people but not others?
I understand the dilemma you have articulated. I believe that it is largely – though not perfectly in that there are still inconsistencies – resolved by viewing the conquest narrative(s) – such as the Canaanite destruction – as God blessing the Israelites in this war and lifting any hand of protection from the Canaanites. Generally speaking, I believe that God blesses and/or brings judgment upon those who are – respectively - obedient OR disobedient to His ways and His love for mankind by either – respectively – providing protective favor for those who are obedient to His ways or lifting favor – simply ignoring – those who aren’t. In a WORLD where humanity has free will and is so completely disobedient, violent, idolatrous, hateful… this is a pretty effective distinction that only God can make!
If the conquest narratives depict a God who loves some people but not others, then is this picture consistent with God’s revelation in Jesus Christ, as he is depicted in the NT?
Jesus came to save the world. From itself. His message of unconditional love was a bit different, but he remains a faithful archetype of YHWH. Jesus provided the way for all of humanity to enter into the Kingdom of God.
4) You then offer three paragraphs on the NT. I am doubtful that your use of the word “obvious” in reference to the NT will be appreciated here. Is it likely that the meanings of texts written almost two thousand years ago in a very different context will be “obvious” to contemporary Westerners? Why engage in conversation about these texts if they are?
I don’t understand the distinction you are making so I can’t agree with your concluding question. I do think my point about the NT being a different narrative, with Jesus providing a “new covenant,” is pretty much a stipulated understanding. Maybe I’m expecting too much.
5) Then you confess, “I simply don’t see the tension between how God chose to administer his relationship with his people after the Garden and before Jesus, and after Jesus.” The “tension” that has been referred to in this thread is between the OT’s attitude toward violence and the NT’s attitude toward violence. Joshua 6:21 reads, “Then [the Israelites] devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys.”
Understood. In this historical narrative, the Israelites decimated all that could be decimated of the Canaanites, who were an unrepenting, idolatrous nation/tribe/people. YHWH allowed this; condoned it, actually. It was necessary atonement in the absence of a new covenant (Jesus). The Canaanites were a threat to God’s people; Joshua was a faithful and obedient leader of the Israelites, and they had great favor with the Lord (“lovingkindness” is used 19 times in the OT; “mercy” over 200 times [KJV]). Throw that battle into the “win” column for the Israelites. The “moral vision” was simply a culmination of the blessings and curses spelled out in Deuteronomy.
Which was, as told in the NT narrative, Jesus’ favorite book and that, also, includes the Shema (Deut. 6:4-9).
Jesus says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” (Matthew 5:43-44). Here there is tension between the moral vision of the OT and the moral vision of the NT. Moreover, because some holy war/genocide texts depict God sanctioning this wholesale slaughter (see, for example, Joshua 8:27), God’s character is at issue. Is this depiction of God’s nature entirely accurate, or does Jesus more exactly reveal God’s nature—as Hebrews 1:1-3a indicates?
I don’t believe that God’s character is ever at issue, but I realize that’s semantics. To your point, the depiction of God’s personality in Hebrews 1:1-3a or in the book of Matthew of anywhere else, for that matter, is STILL one of a loving, but demanding, God. Israel was intended to be a model nation, one that all others would see as experiencing great blessings because of fealty to the Lord (YHWH). Of course, they have – throughout OT and NT history - concomitantly served as a great example of how disobedience to the commandments of the Lord can lead to ultimate tragedy. That said, the NT proposition and the teachings of Jesus regarding love… and of how, in fact, curses can be transformed into blessings through repentance, are paramount. Loving your enemies is a NT proposition that can only exist with the new covenant.
6) Sadly, you then draw a predictable conclusion from your biblicist reading of Scripture: “I mean that countries – peoples – and specifically Israel, will engage in battles for survival in the future against people who are not of the Kingdom and also – as Revelation depicts – there will be massive war and destruction in the future that ultimately heralds in the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven to earth. Many will perish, I imagine, including those who are citizens of the Kingdom of God.” Armed with this interpretation, why would we even try to be peacemakers? Why not cheer the recent bloody images coming out of Gaza? Perhaps they are signs that “the Kingdom of Heaven” is almost here! No need for mourning—after all, God sometimes sanctions the killing of children!
Wow, that’s a cynical view. There is no reason whatsoever to cheer on what is happening in Gaza, or elsewhere in the world. God so loved the world that he sent Jesus so that ALL the world would be saved. I don’t pretend to know Jesus – or God’s – timing on His return, but I’ll leave the war mongering to others.
Thankfully, there are other ways to interpret the book of Revelation than your futurist reading. To start, we should take seriously John’s insistence that what he wrote about “must soon take place” (Revelation 1:1; see also 1:3). A responsible interpretation will suggest that much of what is envisioned in Revelation has already taken place, and that it has more to do with ancient Rome than with the modern secular nation-state of Israel.
I’m not a preterist, though I don’t doubt that some of what John wrote about in Revelation has taken place.
7) In conclusion, you write: “The Bible surely contains many mysteries, but one of them isn’t, I believe, the notional dichotomy between the God of the OT and the God of the NT. YHWH, the Lord, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are unchangeable and their promises are eternal as are their personalities.” I do not believe that there is a “notional dichotomy between the God of the OT and the God of the NT” (I’m not advocating Marcionism). I do believe that the NT provides a clearer picture of God than does the OT—if for no other reason than the simple fact that the NT writers had the advantage of the teaching and example of God’s supreme revelation, Jesus, at their disposal.
Josh, here we can agree (mostly)!!!
All the best,
F.H.L. Abraham
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
There is NO WAY to escape this part of the narrative because it is so prevalent throughout the OT.
Really? I’m quite sure I could think of a dozen or two.
Perhaps when facing such issues we need to ensure that our imaginations match our devotion?
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Wow. I’m not sure exactly what is meant by your context or your comment. If you can think of a dozen or two ways to evade (escape) the violent narrative of the OT, then IMHO you are thinking wayyyyy too much. Speaking of imagination! But that’s just me.
The Bible is what it is.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
On the contrary, I’m sure it would only take around 24 seconds of thought.
The Bible is what it is.
Yes, it is.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Could we be a bit more specific here?
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Excellent discussion.
What some seem to be trying to do here (and often) is to express God’s consistency in terms of a set of rules which determine what he might or ought to do in any given situation. This involves not only an unrealistic view of personality but also an unrealistic view of the nature of action or the classification of situations. (It also may give the impression in some quarters of us being proud and morally developed enough to assess God’s own actions on some kind of scale of moral rectitude.)
It also results in a statically defined image of God which is independent of the world in which he is an actor. When Jesus for example threw out the traders from the temple, this was not merely an object lesson to teach us about the character of Jesus. It was a real event in a real context in which it was important to the real person, Jesus, to perform a certain action. I don’t see how such an action could be deemed fundamentally inconsistent with the destruction of Jericho. The idea of seeking a character definition of God seems flawed, depriving him of true personality and true freedom of choice and it would be better to look at a study of God more in terms of a biography than a philosophical or moral definition.
For similar reasons I would reject the notion that God is outside of time; this idea seems to support the history-independent view of God and as such I feel is unrealistic. The truth is in the history and if God is characteristically outside history (and only pops in every so often to show his face for the sake of us who are supposedly unable to comprehend him as he really is outside of time) it doesn’t give us much hope that the history is worth very much or that doing morally good actions as our contribution to the world is any better than doing something else. If all that matters is our own personality then why do we need to do anything at all?
Surely what matters is the world as a whole and what course it is following? That’s why our actions are right or wrong as the case may be, not because our personalities are defined as good or bad. I’m not only appealing for a more realistic view of personality but also a more realistic view of history as being the effective substance of the personality rather than an abstract concept of a character definition or description.
Desert
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Desert—
While I’m not sure I understand every part of your comment (actually, I’m sure I don’t), I will risk a reply.
It seems to me that your understanding of what is “unrealistic” serves as a kind of guiding principle for you. You seem to be evaluating arguments on the basis of your understanding of reality. How do you determine what is realistic and what is unrealistic? And is your understanding of what is realistic/unrealistic a larger category than the biblical narrative?
Also, I’m not sure why you have compared the story of Jesus at the temple and the story of Joshua at Jericho. This choice seems like an apples and oranges comparison to me. What Jesus did at the temple might not be “fundamentally inconsistent” with what Joshua and others did at Jericho (genocidal violence—see Joshua 6:21). Is killing children then pretty much the same as overturning tables and scaring animals? I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Why not offer a comparison of Joshua 6 and Matthew 5-7? Perhaps because the ethic of violence in Joshua 6 does seem to be “fundamentally inconsistent” with the ethic of nonviolence in Matthew 5-7. As I have confessed earlier, I believe God is free—free even to use violence. Jesus, however, did not use violence; and we are called not to play God, but to follow Jesus.
I add that while you are concerned to defend God’s “true freedom of choice,” your unwillingness to allow God to be “history-independent” suggests that God is history-dependent—not exactly free. I agree that God acts in history. But to limit God to the confines of history makes God finite. And how can we claim that a time-bound God is eternal?
Perhaps I am reading too much into what you are suggesting; but your “realistic” God doesn’t seem to be much of a God to me.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
And how can we claim that a time-bound God is eternal?
I don’t see why we need to. What is wrong with the idea that God lives for ever in time?
Also, I’m not sure why you have compared the story of Jesus at the temple and the story of Joshua at Jericho.
Because if I saw anybody doing one of those things in the name of justice, I could also see the same person doing the other thing in the name of justice without having to infer that the person had undergone a massive shift in personality.
You seem to be evaluating arguments on the basis of your understanding of reality.
Don’t we all?
How do you determine what is realistic and what is unrealistic?
Generally, what is realistic is what is obvious to normal people and readily ascertainable to the senses without a lot of extrapolation. The idea of a God who is outside of time is certainly not realistic in this sense. Everything we do is predicated on living in time. The best reason I can think of why people might want to assert that God is outside of time is that it avoids having to confront a number of contradictions in the supposed nature of God as all-knowing, including in particular knowing of the future. But this kind of assertion only works because it cannot by definition be disproved. In other words it is not open to question. It is simply a way of reinforcing one’s argument without having to provide normal justifications for that argument. This particular idea runs parallel to Calvin’s assertion that the basis of God’s judgement in electing some whilst rejecting others cannot possibly be known to us. Since it cannot possibly be known then it is not open to question. I would reject any argument that by its nature was not open to question because it breaches fundamental ethics of truth and logic.
If you suppose that God is eternal (i.e. in a timeless dimension) and unchanging, and that we are made in his image, then you should also argue that we are eternal and fundamentally unchanging. Indeed, this is what is implied by the body/spirit dichotomy which is the tradition of much of Christendom. But how then do you account for conversion? How do you account for change, for repentance? Also, how do you account for birth (let alone death)?
And how are we to be of the same mind as Christ a la Philippians if that means emptying himself of his divine nature to become like a mortal man? Would that mean that we empty ourselves of our human nature to become like a dog? Even if wanted to do such a thing we would not have the ability.
But, lest I be accused of digressing, let me just say that the idea of imposing on God some kind of rule that he is not allowed to commit genocide in any circumstance smacks to me of a desire to make God into a kind of impersonal force always doing exactly what it is supposed to, without personality and without concern for what happens in history. But when events happen all around us, we can’t make them just stop for our convenience. We have to make decisions about them and those events don’t always fit into our neatly preformed ideas of right and wrong. In fact I would go further and say that they are likely not to fit into any of our preformed ideas of right and wrong. And the more we preform our ethics, the less likely we are to be able to use them in the real world. We may perhaps towards the end of our lives feel satisfaction that we kept the rules to the best of our ability but did we really engage in and with the world as it was taking place?
Desert
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Desert—
You are, of course, free not to claim that God is eternal ("I don’t see why we need to"). I simply was under the impression that we were interpreting Scripture here.
You write: "Because if I saw anybody doing one of those things in the name of justice, I could also see the same person doing the other thing in the name of justice without having to infer that the person had undergone a massive shift in personality." This comment does not address my point, which was that one who teaches enemy-love is not likely to sanction killing enemies (much less their children). And it’s curious that you use the phrase "in the name of justice." The conquest narratives are problematic precisely because they seem unjust. How can children be slaughtered "in the name of justice"?
You point out that we all have "an understanding of reality"—I agree. I made this statement toward my next question, which you quote: "How do you determine what is realistic and what is unrealistic?" You answer: "Generally, what is realistic is what is obvious to normal people and readily ascertainable to the senses without a lot of extrapolation." By this logic, God is unrealistic. My own hope is that we would strive to indwell the biblical narrative, allowing this story to shape our imagination of what is realistic.
Then you write: "If you suppose that God is eternal (i.e. in a timeless dimension) and unchanging, and that we are made in his image, then you should also argue that we are eternal and fundamentally unchanging." Hardly. Do you argue that since God doesn’t die, and we are created in God’s image, we do not die? The image of God refers to the fact that we have been made in God’s likeness, not that we have been made God.
Finally, you write: "But, lest I be accused of digressing, let me just say that the idea of imposing on God some kind of rule that he is not allowed to commit genocide in any circumstance smacks to me of a desire to make God into a kind of impersonal force always doing exactly what it is supposed to, without personality and without concern for what happens in history." As I have written previously in this thread, God is free to use violence—even, I suppose, "to commit genocide." And I certainly have not argued that God is bound to rules—you’re debating yourself. It is you who have bound God; you have bound God to time.
The question is not, "Can God use violence?" The question is, "Does God use violence?" I have argued that while the conquest narratives suggest "yes," the witness of Jesus suggests "no." And I believe the witness of Jesus trumps the witness of Joshua.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
…let me just say that the idea of imposing on God some kind of rule that he is not allowed to commit genocide in any circumstance smacks to me of a desire to make God into a kind of impersonal force always doing exactly what it is supposed to, without personality and without concern for what happens in history.
I think I’d be inclined to say the opposite. Saying that God can commit genocide whenever and wherever he wants to, makes him into some kind of tyranical beast, devoid of love or concern for humanity.
It’s curious how reluctant we are to ‘impose’ rules on God. It seems to me that this is part of the Judeo-Christian tradition. God can be questioned and challenged and God can be presumed to act in certain ways. In short, God can be trusted to behave in ways consistent with his character. Of course, that character is seen most clearly in Jesus.
The idea that God is ‘allowed to commit genocide’ - it baffles me to even be able to type that! - smacks of the desire to make him into a whimsical dictator, not the loving father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But, this isn’t so much about saying what God can and cannot do. It’s simply saying what He is really like. We are told that God ‘cannot lie’. That’s not because He is unable to, or because he is subject to a higher standard. It is precisely because he is that standard and he has bound himself to his own name and character.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
As high as the heavens are above the earth
so high are my ways above your ways
and my thoughts above your thoughts.
Is 55:8-9 [NAB]
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
I’ve always found it slightly rude when people just quote scripture at someone. But I’m probably being over-sensitive.
The context of Isaiah 55, is of God’s *forgiveness* and loyalty to his covenant. So, thanks for pointing to it as it’s a helpful foundation to my previous comment.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
shiert—
I presume with this prooftext you mean to communicate that humankind’s violent ways are not God’s ways. After all, our ways have been violent since Cain. We can hope that God is indeed above such things.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
How pastoral of you to attempt to cover my “rude” inclusion of a “prooftext” in my otherwise “immature” contributions to the dialogue. This surely shows your worth. Actually, the passage cited was taken directly from the Lectionary for Sunday, January 11, The Feast of the Baptism of Jesus. I don’t know what moved me to cut and paste it into this discussion.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
shiert, you may be conflating comments from different people here. I did not call you “rude” or “immature.” The peace of Christ be with you.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Graham—
I appreciate your concerns about the conquest narratives, which I hope it’s clear I share. I also share your dismay that at least three commenters here have expressed little if any concern about holy war/genocide. Perhaps they should read more about Sudan and Congo. I believe this site’s stated purpose has to do with the church engaging the world.
However, I don’t think you need to argue that God is subject to certain "rules" to make your case. I think a better approach is to argue that holy war/genocide is inconsistent with God’s character, as it is revealed in Jesus.
You conclude: "But, this isn’t so much about saying what God can and cannot do. It’s simply saying what He is really like." I tried to say much the same thing when I wrote: "The question is not, ‘Can God use violence?’ The question is, ‘Does God use violence?’”
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Hi Josh,
I only used the language of ‘rules’ because that was used in the comment I was referring to. I’ve encountered an attitude a couple of times that suggests we cannot say “God can’t/won’t do this” because it’s attempting to impose rules on God. I think that it’s actually simply expecting God to act according to a standard of behaviour. Nevertheless, I was trying to make the point that even if it was attempting to impose rules on God, I don’t see that as a unacceptable thing to do. (It’s certainly preferable to genocide!)
The only real problem, I think, with applying rules to God is when those rules are seen as external to - and therefore superior to - God. When they are seen as coming from who God is they are little more than declarations of God’s faithfulness to his revealed character. So, I suspect we’re actually saying the same thing here?
Sorry if this is taking everything too far off-track, folks.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
The only real problem, I think, with applying rules to God is when those rules are seen as external to - and therefore superior to - God. When they are seen as coming from who God is they are little more than declarations of God’s faithfulness to his revealed character.
OK, Graham, I see where your position is. However I still feel it is illogical because if moral truth comes from God’s character alone then it is still arbitrary. It may be consistent but it is still arbitrary. Do we not all experience the intuition that right is right because it is right and not because it happens to be what God would think or do? Right then really becomes a question of whoever is in the most powerful position to have his own character promulgated as the norm.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Fair enough.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
From Graham:
It’s curious how reluctant we are to ‘impose’ rules on God. It seems to me that this is part of the Judeo-Christian tradition.
I am not sure what you mean by this, the reluctance or the imposing?
Saying that God can commit genocide whenever and wherever he wants to, makes him into some kind of tyranical beast, devoid of love or concern for humanity.
The rationale for the destruction of Jericho was clearly announced in the narrative. And indeed elsewhere, the rationale is as far as I can remember always announced. Perhaps you would say the same about vengeance? Is it not a core principle of OT ethics that vengeance is the Lord’s? God does it but we are not allowed to. That is the sovereign right of the Lord of all creation. By denying this principle I feel you must deny something core to the OT. The initial destructions under Jericho were commanded by God specifically, as were some others under Saul and David. They were not the acts of Israel on its own behalf. I don’t believe the teachings of Jesus contradict this principle at all as they are principles on how his followers are to act. What Jesus added was to require that our adherence was to the principle not merely to the letter. He didn’t change the teaching of the Old Testament.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Hi Desert,
The rationale for the destruction of Jericho was clearly announced in
the narrative. And indeed elsewhere, the rationale is as far as I can
remember always announced
I don’t really see the relevance of that. The ‘rationale’ for the genocide is part of the narrative, so open to the same critiques.
Perhaps you would say the same about vengeance? Is it not a core
principle of OT ethics that vengeance is the Lord’s? God does it but we
are not allowed to.
I’m not sure what you mean by me saying the ‘same thing’. However, I would argue that the reason we are told to leave vengeance to God is because we do it vindictively, whereas he does it mercifully. God’s "vengeance" is of a different calibre to ours. It’s not that he has the right to be more violent than us, but that - specifically because he isn’t - he is safe to take care of what we would call "vengeance". We don’t do it
very well. We lash out in anger and hurt, whereas God deals with his
"enemies" by loving them and taking the rap for them.
Is it not a core principle of OT ethics that vengeance is the Lord’s?
Maybe we’re talking at cross-purposes here, but I’d say that the core principle of OT ethics is love.
The initial destructions under Jericho were commanded by God specifically, as were some others under Saul and David.
Well, that’s what the texts would suggest, but I don’t see any compelling reason to leave them unquestioned.
I don’t believe the teachings of Jesus contradict this principle at all
as they are principles on how his followers are to act… He didn’t change the teaching of the Old Testament.
As for the latter statement, of course he did! As for the former, if Jesus didn’t contradict these "principles" that you see, should we really be able to picture Jesus saying, "Love your enemies and do good to those that persecute you, unless God tells you to go to battle and wipe them off the face of the earth. In that case, feel free to kill as many men, women and children as you like. In fact, take some of the men into slavery and the women as your wives, if you - or your leaders - hear a Voice telling them to do so."
If Jesus doesn’t take precedence over OT "principles" then he is irrelevant for me and my world.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
We lash out in anger and hurt, whereas God deals with his
"enemies" by loving them and taking the rap for them.
Graham, how would you demonstrate that from the Old Testament? God was merciful to the Ninevites because they repented. But there was no ‘taking the rap for them’, and presumably if they had not repented, their city would have been destroyed, no doubt by military conquest. Or how would you demonstrate that the core principle of Old Testament ethics is love? Love for Israel, maybe, but love for Israel’s enemies?
But you also want to maintain that Jesus takes precedence over Old Testament principles, in which case it is unnecessary - indeed, counterproductive - to argue that the God of the Old Testament is merciful and loves his enemies…
I think I suggested somewhere else that the confusion arises because when Jesus says ‘love your enemies’, we assume he means that God also loves his enemies and wouldn’t hurt a fly. I think we have to find a better way to reconcile i) Jesus’ belief that the coming war would be an act of divine punishment with appalling consequences for unrepentant Israel and ii) his insistence that in the midst of the turmoil, during the eschatological birthpangs, his followers should love those who persecute them.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Andrew, it has been a while since I commented on OST, not for want of interest but because of severe limitations in available time. Still, here’s one that I could not pass up!
"the God of the Old Testament is merciful and loves his enemies…" should not be a tretch at all if one is reading the OT from within it’s historical perspective. Given the politics, culture and philosophy of the authors, and of their sponsors, one need not read the assertions of God’s anger or vengefulness as anything more fanciful than they in fact were. Excellent propoganda for whatever political designs are at play but accurate history and/or sound theology? I doubt it…
Live to serve : Serve to live
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
I don’t think the OT’s witness regarding God’s character and ways is entirely consistent. God shows mercy to Cain in Genesis 4, but just a few chapters later shows no mercy to most of the human race.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Graham, how would you demonstrate that from the Old Testament? God was
merciful to the Ninevites because they repented. But there was no
‘taking the rap for them’, and presumably if they had not repented,
their city would have been destroyed, no doubt by military conquest.
I was talking in general terms, Andrew. Perhaps I was forcing Paul onto the OT, but I have no problem with that.
But you also want to maintain that Jesus takes precedence over Old
Testament principles, in which case it is unnecessary - indeed,
counterproductive - to argue that the God of the Old Testament is
merciful and loves his enemies…
Not at all. In fact, that would only be the case if I was to completely equate the ‘the God of the Old Testament’ with any supposed OT principle. If, however, we accept the reasonable suggestion that God was only partially seen in such principles (to finally be seen most clearly in Jesus), then there is no problem.
I think I suggested somewhere else that the confusion arises because
when Jesus says ‘love your enemies’, we assume he means that God also
loves his enemies and wouldn’t hurt a fly.
Yes, I remember you making that point elsewhere. However, in response I’d say a) we don’t all see the confusion, and b) there is quite a spectrum between genocide and not hurting a fly.
Personally, I find it rather troubling to have to defend the proposition that Jesus takes precedence over OT principles. It’s hardly a novel view.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
I would argue that the reason we are told to leave vengeance to God is because we do it vindictively, whereas he does it mercifully. God’s "vengeance" is of a different calibre to ours. It’s not that he has the right to be more violent than us, but that - specifically because he isn’t - he is safe to take care of what we would call "vengeance". We don’t do it very well. We lash out in anger and hurt, whereas God deals with his "enemies" by loving them and taking the rap for them.
It seems, ironically, there is a certain consistency here: putting God in a box also requires putting humans in a box. From a viewpoint of character analysis I am sure you are right: the person best qualified to judge is the one who judges the least. But this applies as much to humans as to God. But the most you can say is that some people are quick to judge and that such people should not be allowed (if that is possible) to take positions where they are judges. I think that you have read into the OT principle which is simply that vengeance is the sole prerogative of God and it has nothing to do with whether any individual is more or less inclined to violence.
I feel that a number of theological positions do this, degrading the human being in order to elevate God. Man is not by nature depraved (contra Calvin) and we do not by nature lash out in anger or hurt.
(Ps. is anybody seeing the entire site centered instead of left justified as I am at the moment?)
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Thanks for your reply, DR.
I think we’re getting too far off-track from the OP now, so I won’t bother to respond. However, I should just point out that I wasn’t trying to say anything about human nature (depraved or otherwise). In fact, I find the whole concept of human nature fairly meaningless.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
As I have written previously in this thread, God is free to use violence—even, I suppose, "to commit genocide." And I certainly have not argued that God is bound to rules—you’re debating yourself.
Josh, I am not debating myself. I was responding to the general moral absolutist tenor of some arguments on this thread such as this one in the opening post:
sheer human horror and moral heinousness of genocide—ancient or modern, God-commanded or otherwise
and this one later
He exists outside of time. He is ever faithful. He is omniscient. He is omnipresent. Hopefully, nobody would disagree with these tenets.
Fact is that a lot of people do disagree with them (and the moral absolutist position they imply), of which I am one. I never said that you held this kind of position. My initial response was to the thread not to you in particular, OK?
This comment does not address my point, which was that one who teaches enemy-love is not likely to sanction killing enemies (much less their children). And it’s curious that you use the phrase "in the name of justice." The conquest narratives are problematic precisely because they seem unjust. How can children be slaughtered "in the name of justice"?
But here at least I do feel you are jumping into moral absolutes. But there are other ways of looking at it for example "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord". The imperative of loving enemies is surely an expression of this principle, not an absolute in itself? What’s the point in Jesus dying on the cross to abolish the law "that stood against us as decrees" and bring us into the freedom of the sons of God if all we do with the New Testament is make a new set of laws that stand not only against us but against God as well?
Hardly. Do you argue that since God doesn’t die, and we are created in God’s image, we do not die?
Not at all. Not I. But a lot of people do and that indeed is the orthodox position of the church for probably at least 1500 years. That is exactly the reason why we are attributed with an eternal soul. It goes hand in hand with the teaching that God is outside of time. The soul part of the human is the bit that is outside of time also.
The question is not, "Can God use violence?" The question is, "Does God use violence?" I have argued that while the conquest narratives suggest "yes," the witness of Jesus suggests "no." And I believe the witness of Jesus trumps the witness of Joshua.
But that isn’t the question. The question is "is God permitted to commit genocide?" If the question were merely does God use violence, and if Jesus advocated an absolute non-violent principle then it would not only be the witness of Joshua Jesus was trumping but the whole of the Old Testament, for there are violent actions on God’s part virtually from beginning to end.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Desert—
Thank you for clarifying to whom you were responding—I had thought that you were responding to something I had written. Like you, I have reservations about moral absolutes (and about absolutism in general).
Perhaps, as you suggest, I am close to falling into a kind of moral absolutism myself when I question the justice of any genocide. However, I have yet to hear a compelling argument for a genocide that is just. And I’d rather not err on the side of genocide.
You seem to be suggesting (with your reference to 1500 years) that the immortality of the soul is a post-biblical notion. Again, I agree. I wonder, though, if the reason this doctrine developed had less to do with God’s eternal nature, and more to do with the delay of Christ’s return and the restoration of all creation.
We seem simply to be concerned about different questions. I am willing to say that sovereign God is “permitted to commit genocide”—if only because God is truly free. I am not, however, convinced that God does use violence—at least, not genocidal violence. The OT witness on the subject of violence is mixed. There are violent books—Joshua, Judges, and others. Many of the prophetic books, however, are critical of violence; in fact, it could be argued that the trajectory of the OT moves from much violence to less violence.
As for the revelation of Jesus trumping the revelation of the OT—yes, I do believe that when there are seemingly irreconcilable differences between the witness of Jesus and the witness of the OT (such as on the subject of genocide), Jesus trumps the OT. Here I am in the company of theologians from Origen to Richard Hays. Jesus—not the OT—is Lord. The OT points in shadowy fashion to Jesus; Jesus reveals God more clearly.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
You seem to be suggesting (with your reference to 1500 years) that the immortality of the soul is a post-biblical notion. Again, I agree. I wonder, though, if the reason this doctrine developed had less to do with God’s eternal nature, and more to do with the delay of Christ’s return and the restoration of all creation.
An interesting idea. My present view is that it has more to do with anti-semitism: the loss of Jewish interpretive framework and the adoption of Greek, in particular Platonic (and self-important) thought into Christianity. Augustine expressly admits reliance on Plato but I am sure that it existed before his time too. The eternal soul was of course a Platonic concept. I find it interesting though that if anything the influence of Stoicism was much more noticeable in the New Testament writings and this would probably have been more acceptable as a world view to the early Christians than Plato, given a choice between the two.
for the revelation of Jesus trumping the revelation of the OT—yes, I do believe that when there are seemingly irreconcilable differences between the witness of Jesus and the witness of the OT (such as on the subject of genocide), Jesus trumps the OT.
As I previously hinted, I don’t see that there is a contradiction between the two. This is partly because on purely analytical arguments, (see my response to Graham for example) they can be harmonised (though the debate is likely to be endless) but more importantly because I look at God from a historical viewpoint, not a theoretical (or idealistic) one.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
My present view is that it has more to do with anti-semitism: the loss of Jewish interpretive framework and the adoption of Greek, in particular Platonic (and self-important) thought into Christianity. Augustine expressly admits reliance on Plato but I am sure that it existed before his time too. The eternal soul was of course a Platonic concept. I find it interesting though that if anything the influence of Stoicism was much more noticeable in the New Testament writings and this would probably have been more acceptable as a world view to the early Christians than Plato, given a choice between the two.
I’m with you here. I don’t think the view I have suggested (about the delay of Christ’s final, decisive return) and the view you have shared are mutually exclusive.
I don’t see that there is a contradiction between the two. This is partly because on purely analytical arguments, (see my response to Graham for example) they can be harmonised (though the debate is likely to be endless) but more importantly because I look at God from a historical viewpoint, not a theoretical (or idealistic) one.
Just to be clear: I don’t struggle with the conquest narratives because they conflict with a pre-conceived theoretical or idealistic view of God; I struggle with these narratives because they seem to me to be inconsistent with the gospel narratives.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Josh
I am puzzled by this comment
“You seem to be suggesting (with your reference to 1500 years) that the immortality of the soul is a post-biblical notion. Again, I agree.”
The Christian scriptures clearly envision an afterlife of a sort different from the descent into the twilight world of Sheol that is prevalent through most of the Jewish scriptures. This corresponds to the shift from an ethic based on human, this world flourishing to one which goes beyond this world and which involves self abnegation, the dissolution of tribal boundaries and forgiveness without limit. God also becomes a being not of this world but beyond the world.
The life beyond death of the New Testament is one for human beings, not for souls. The split between body and soul is a Greek (Platonic idea) that only begins to have currency a good deal later. My reading of the New Testament writings, especially John, is that after death we live forever. In any event, I do not think there is anything in the idea of eternal life that mandates life outside of time- again a Greek idea. It could just as well be life in time. Both ideas, of course are replete with difficulties.
Paul
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Hi, Paul—
It seems to me that over time the New Testament teaching of the resurrection of the body was replaced by a doctrine of the immortality of the soul (perhaps because people got tired of waiting for the former). So, I agree that the "life beyond death of the New Testament is one for human beings, not for souls." Roger Olson writes:
Many Christians who consciously embrace immortality of souls to the exclusion of bodily resurrection have no idea of its ancient roots in Greek philosophy and Gnostic spirituality…one simply cannot read the entire New Testament and miss its reservation of redemption for the future—when Christ returns visibly in judgment.
As the NT story goes, eternal life (in its fullest sense, at least) will begin with the general resurrection. I’m not sure we have a substantive difference of opinion here.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Andrew
In your post of 31 December, you say
"there is perhaps much less of a discrepancy than modern, enlightened, liberalized readers like to think. Certainly Jesus would never have advocated violence as a means of bringing about the reign of God over his people. But I think it is difficult to deny that he saw military-political destruction as an expression of the judgment of God".
I do not think you have to be modern, enlightened or liberal to notice a very large discrepancy.
The God depicted in the Jewish scriptures kills and maims at whim. In this, Jahweh is like the Gods of other pre-axial religions. It is true, as you suggest, that he sometimes punishes his people by using earthly military powers as proxies but just as often the massacres are by his own hand. And his motives are not only about punishment - he has other motives, often both amoral and trivial. He kills people because they irritate him, or to show that he can, or because they are not sufficiently obeisant. He inflicts terrible suffering on Job for no reason other than doubts about his loyalty. When Job challenges him, his answer is that might is right. He is careless of issues of morality in his killing sprees. Sometimes he gives as a token reason, that his victims are wicked, but he also kills just because people get in the way of his projects and without any attempt at moral justification.
The contrast with the God of the gospels is stark. Jesus’ command of the elements and power to heal reveal his divine provenance. He has the same power as Jahweh to kill and maim but he not only does not do so but he renounces the use of his power to achieve political ends or indeed to physically compel anybody to do anything. His contest with the devil in the wilderness is a stand-off; he declines to use the legions of angels that are available to him when the chief priests come to arrest him. He is content that divine judgement should be passed somewhere else than on earth:
"Your Father in heaven causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Matt 5.21ff)"
Of course you could accept that Jesus is not the kind of amoral killer that Jahweh was but argue that he is like him in using proxies, such as the Romans, to inflict punishment for wickedness. But that too is inconsistent with the Jesus otherwise portrayed in the New Testament-not only the disinclination to use force that I described in the preceding paragraph but also his insistence on forgiveness and his view that sin is primarily personal (rather than of the people as a whole). You can of course find texts which suggest other understandings but to my mind these are the undigested remnants of the earlier view of God.
Paul
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
In recent public opinion polls, Americans back Israel 4 to 1 in its Gazan conflict. I’m sure some of this support reflects the persistent horror over the Germans’ genocidal slaughter of the Jews. But I also wonder to what extent Americans believe that the nation of Israel retains a perpetual God-given right to possess their Promised Land and to expel or slaughter anyone who gets in their way. Republicans are far more likely than Democrats to support Israel unconditionally, and American evangelical Christians are far more likely to be Republicans than to be Democrats.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
John:
I’m going to go with both of your theses on this. However, I think that Hamas is a terrorist organization, and therefore not likely to get much sympathy even in this bizarre world that we live in.
Sympathy from Americans, that is.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
"Hamas is a terrorist organization, and therefore not
likely to get much sympathy even in this bizarre world that we live in. Sympathy from Americans, that is."
Of course the perpetrators of genocide and their allies can always justify their actions in their own eyes.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Accusations of terrorism are a two edged sword. The American firebombing of Japan was an example of terrorism as was the carpet bombing of Germany.
Hamas, so far as I can see, is a ruthless organisation, but is faces a ruthless enemy intent on squeezing the life out of it. It resorts to ill-directed rocket fire because that is all it can do. I am sure that if the Americans provided it with a few squadrons of F15s equipped with laser bombs, its targeting would become much more precise.
I am also inclined to think that the latest Israeli incursions into Gaza were essentially terrorist in intent- that is, they were designed to terrify the civilian population rather than to achieve the (impossible) aim of eliminating the Hamas military machine.
Paul
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Hey Paul. You seem to accord Hamas a degree of credibility that most would not. They are SWORN to eradicate Israel… that’s their philosophy, their creed. Israel’s foray into Gaza is surely intended to demoralize - terrify as you would impute - all of those in Gaza who would seek to come against Israel.
Terrorism today means more than merely terrifying people. You seem to miss that point. Terrorism is a strategy with concomitant tactics that seeks to target civilians using highly unconventional (in a military sense) “weapons” with no regard for the actual military value of whomever is killed or injured.
Could you impute that America bombing Tokyo and Germany in WWII as terrorism? I suppose, except that we had declared war against both countries, had suffered massive casualties, had been fighting for years over tens of thousands of square miles of the globe and these were the final campaigns to end the war (on both fronts). Are these distinctions? I think so but others may not.
They were terrible losses and I’m sure that the loss of innocent lives was contemplated and dreaded from an entirely different perspective at the time.
I’d venture that these battles were viewed by God as complete foolishness on the part of man… particularly the Pacific war.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
I agree fully with Paul’s remarks about Israeli government-sponsored terrorism inflicted on the people of Gaza. To bomb schools, mosques, apartment buildings, etc., killing hundreds of people who have been expelled from their homes and imprisoned in a blockaded ghetto specifically because they aren’t Jewish by ethnicity or religion: isn’t this genocide? One needn’t be a political supporter of Hamas in order to recognize the crimes against humanity being perpetrated by their enemies.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Obviously current events in the Middle East are connected to the topic of Canaanite genocide. However, could I be so bold a to suggest that this discussion perhaps warrants a separate thread?
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Okay, Graham, I’ll let it go, but first here’s something timely on a related subject. Today on the steps of the US Capitol Rick Warren stirred a bit of controversy by concluding his inaugural invocation with a recitation of the Lord’s Prayer — a distinctly Christian prayer of course. What I found more surprising is that he referred to Jesus by the Hebrew name Yeshua. In so doing he returned to a note he first sounded at the very beginning of the prayer:
Almighty God, our father, everything we see and everything we can’t see exists because of you alone. It all comes from you, it all belongs to you. It all exists for your glory. History is your story. The Scripture tells us “Hear, oh Israel, the Lord is our god; the Lord is one.”
"Hear, oh Israel"? This is the Shema, central to traditional Jewish prayer services. It appears in Deuteronomy 6: Moses has just delivered the Ten Commandments in Chapter 5, and now he’s giving the people a set of final instructions and warnings before they seize the land of Canaan. It’s at the beginning of the very next chapter that we read Moses’ genocidal instructions to "utterly destroy" the residents of the land — the passage that launched this post and discussion in the first place. Is it mere coincidence that Warren chose of all things the Shema as the opening theme for his invocation at this particular juncture in history? I don’t think so.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
John: Not to be an Israel apologist in the least, but your post states things that simply are not factual.
To bomb schools, mosques, apartment buildings, etc., killing hundreds of people who have been expelled from their homes and imprisoned in a blockaded ghetto specifically because they aren’t Jewish by ethnicity or religion: isn’t this genocide?
Hamas - terribly, expediently and grossly opportunistically, and without regard for the life of the people they allege to represent - places their bases of operation for mortars, rockets and military forays into these places you mention: mosques, schools, apartment buildings, etc.
Israel FIRST warns everybody in the area that they are a target and to get out. Then they very accurately target these sites. If - by that time - Hamas has not allowed people to move out, there are "innocent" casualties. This is beyond sad, and a wanton PR stunt on the part of Hamas so as to be able to lay at the feet of Israel the death of these non-combatant women, children, etc.
It obviously works, because you seem convinced of the very typecast that Hamas seeks to have Israel proclaimed as.
Graham is right that this is far afield from the original intent of this thread. My apologies for continuing this discussion here in this manner.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
F.H.L.—
How are you not acting as “an Israel apologist” in this post?
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Of course you could accept that Jesus is not the kind of amoral killer that Jahweh was but argue that he is like him in using proxies, such as the Romans, to inflict punishment for wickedness. But that too is inconsistent with the Jesus otherwise portrayed in the New Testament-not only the disinclination to use force that I described in the preceding paragraph but also his insistence on forgiveness and his view that sin is primarily personal (rather than of the people as a whole). You can of course find texts which suggest other understandings but to my mind these are the undigested remnants of the earlier view of God.
Paul, instead could one suppose that after Jesus, such as in Roman times, personal choice (God’s permissive will) - rather than God’s proactive "proxy" - account for all of the wickedness in the world? The only source of Judgment is God (divine judgment).
If you suppose that God (YHWH) is an amoral killer, at anytime, then you truly miss the central message of the bible and of the Christian faith. The OT narrative, replete with violence and judgment, NEVER depicts God as amoral. He is always a just and consistent - and moral.
My $0.0
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Paul, instead could one suppose that after Jesus, such as in Roman times, personal choice (God’s permissive will) - rather than God’s proactive "proxy" - account for all of the wickedness in the world? The only source of Judgment is God (divine judgment).
Sorry, I don’t follow your point here.
If you suppose that God (YHWH) is an amoral killer, at anytime, then
you truly miss the central message of the bible and of the Christian
faith. The OT narrative, replete with violence and judgment, NEVER
depicts God as amoral. He is always a just and consistent - and moral.
My own view is that that is what the Book of Job is about. In any event the characterisation of God as amoral is mine, not one I attribute to the OT authors. It seems to me that your view of God is not one that you take from the text but one that you import into it .
Paul
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
Hey Paul:
In the first paragraph I was trying to convey that man - with his free will - accounts for wicked acts in the world. Actually, a better way of communicating this would be to say that man is the DEVIL’s proactive “proxy” in unleashing so many wicked and evil acts upon each other.
I read Job completely differently than you. I used to have your interpretation - generally - until it was pointed out to me that it was not God who caused Job to suffer, it was satan. I don’t have the scripture handy, but that’s the way the whole exchange between satan and God is set up. Then, at the end, God restores Job. All along the way Job’s incredible travails are the account of satan, and God’s hand being lifted from Job.
Job is the oldest book in the OT (supposedly) and the hebrew texts vary on the exact wording. But the essence of the narrative is that satan and God had a discussion, singling out Job as a loyal servant of God, and then the devil sought to destroy Job with everything he could throw at him, whilst God knew all along that Job would withstand the assault of satan and, after God was proven correct, he restored Job.
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Re: Canaanite Genocide and its Monstrous Concept of God
pre-apologies for having not read ALL the comments on this topic (which are quite extensive). What I have to say may have already been said, so I will keep it brief. My own take on OT violence and its variance with NT teachings of Jesus is this.
In order for Jesus to emerge at “the proper time” a people had to be prepared with the necessary background (narrative). The history of humanity was a violent one. The state emerged as the supreme power to advance the interests of people and for their protection. According to anarchist thinkers the state is by its very nature violent and uses coercion (violence or the threat thereof) to advance assert its will. In order to nurture the narrative that would sustain the knowledge of the true God, the covenant took the form of the state for a period of time to ensure the survival of the people carrying the sacred tradition. At the appropriate time Jesus emerged and the Kingdom of God was advanced as a transcendant community that no longer had need of the state for its support.
mschellman.blogspot.com
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