So how is it then that people have added themselves/been added to the people of God since Pentecost? If there was no announcement, then how did people come to know what was going on in the church and become part of whatever it was they had to offer?

Why is it that a phenomenon which was at first limited to Jerusalem spread so rapidly across Asia Minor, to the European mainland in one direction, and eastwards to Persia, India and China in the other direction, and today is the predominant religion in the world if there was nothing to tell anyone about?

If I were sitting on a belief which offered actual access to a holy God, who would accept me just as I am, and provided a means not only for forgiveness of everything in my life which represented participation in the mutiny aboard the ship which has been described, but would infuse into my life a power and a life which would change my character so that it was no longer dragged down by the gravitational pull of death, but would overcome death - both in all that it represents in this life, and in a life to come, in which I could participate in the fulfilment of creation’s purposes both now and in a life to come, and offer genuine change to a society and culture that is, in the end, locked in futility … wouldn’t it be considered gravely reprehensible if I told nobody about it?

Or is this a message which our jaded palates have grown tired of, and we would rather have something else - something - something more spicey, something new, something more novel?

Sorry Andrew - I’m not having a dig; I just had to get this out of my system so it wasn’t preying on me. It’s very injurious to one’s health to suppress things. I’m done! Also you are one better than me: I don’t yet have anything to give my wife for Valentine’s Day - I’ll have to think of something quick!

Andrew,

Your point is well taken. I can’t help but wonder, though, what implications that understanding may have. I grew up in a church setting that used collective funds only to the benefit of “the church,” while personal giving to “the world” was occasionally mentioned. There is a certain coherent logic to that understanding; the new creation taking care of itself and showing a different way of living and caring would potentially draw others into that new creation.

Would you be willing to expound on what you think the implications are regarding a “new creation” understanding versus a “transforming” understanding, in terms of what the church should be doing and focusing on?

Thanks for your consideration and insight.
 Tony

Interesting idea you have there.

While It doesn’t seem that the Bible ever pictures the whole earth as assumed within the Abrahamic Covenent, it is ubiquitous that Yhwh is indeed king over the Earth, and that in time, all nations will eventually acknowledge that dominion, and he will bring peace an justice to all (dare one call that ‘rescue’?). Isaiah 2:1-5 imagines this especially in terms of the nations streaming up to the temple. They themselves have not become the temple, but they receive the blessing, that I think can approriatly be called ‘rescue,’ via the Yhwh cult (or Jerusalem Temple, or Church, or whatever).

Furthermore, Wright’s idea of Daniel has some basis, particularly in connection with Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, and the stone that becomes a whole mountian filling the earth (which particular sounds like an idea your post condems concerning the expansion of a red ballon). Though the latter part of Daniel does seem to place a greater emphasis on the vindication of the righteous, part of that vindication is dominion over the nations (7:28?).

Of course, you are not denying that God will eventually rule over the whole earth, as far as I can tell (which, you know better than I, would go against the implication of a good many scriptures).

The issue seems to me to be a matter of timing. When are the nations to be ‘rescued’ (or perhape compelled to submit) by God? You place this in the future, at the second coming I pressume. The Old Testament sometimes supports this view, showing the judgment of the nations, vindication of Israel, and the global rescue all in one fell swoop. This is particularly the message we see in the evangelistic sermons in Acts and is therefore an essential part of the picture. However, I would also argue that the Gospel and the church are seen not only as a prophetic symbol of God’s saving work (which they are), but that they are also effectual in that saving work (Rom. 1:16-17). It’s part of this ‘already/not yet’ stuff that G. E. Ladd was always blathering on about.

The Church functions both as a prophetic symbol, but also as an effectual and expanding reality. The message that Jesus is Lord doesn’t only point to the future, but is also the power of God in itself (1 Cor 1).

Luckly, we have guys like you, and guys like Wright who are sure to point out both halves of this to us, and make so much noise in the process of debate that one can hardly aviod running across your ‘mutually edifying’ veiwpoints ;-|

Wright is simply reacting against a strong isolationist/gnostic ideology that permiates large portions of the evangellical movement. I can dig that.

Aaron Christianson

Hi Andrew Perriman,

Appreciate your effort brother, but I have to challenge you concerning an assertion you make and then try to defend. You wrote in about the 5th paragraph,

"There is no vision of the whole earth being brought under the kingship of God."

I love you brother, and believe your heart is in the right place, but I just have to say, "HELLO! Have you never read Psalms 2 and 22? Here is the NIV rendering. please take full notice of such words as:

nations (1),

kings (2),

EARTH (2),

and especially verses 8-10.

 Thanks.

Psalm 2

1 Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain?

2 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One.

3 "Let us break their chains," they say, "and throw off their fetters."

4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them.

5 Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,

6 "I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill."

7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD : He said to me, "You are my Son ; today I have become your Father.

8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.

9 You will rule them with an iron scepter ; you will dash them to pieces like pottery."

10 Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth.

11 Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

And then Andrew, Psalm 22, and I will simply present the ending:

27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him— those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn— for he has done it.

If that is not a pronouncement of total victory over this EARTH, please brother, share with me what would be? These passages foreshadow the words of our Lord instructing us as to our perspective and proper focus, "Thy will be done, on EARTH, as it is in Heaven," and, "occupy until I come." And the ever expanding Kingdom (i.e., remember the mustard seed…) is bringing this to pass.

Consider these choice quotes:

The Scriptures, both of the Old and New Testament, clearly reveal that the gospel is to exercise an influence over all branches of the human family, immeasurably more extensive and more thoroughly transforming than any it has ever realized in time past. This end is to be gradually attained through the spiritual presence of Christ in the ordinary dispensation of Providence and the ministrations of His church.

A. A. Hodge

David was not a believer in the theory that the world will grow worse and worse, and that the dispensation will wind up with general darkness and idolatry. Earth’s sun is to go down amid tenfold night if some of our prophetic brethren are to be believed. Not so do we expect, but we look for a day when the dwellers in all lands shall learn righteousness, shall trust in the Savior, shall worship thee alone, O God, and "shall glorify thy name." The modern notion has greatly damped the zeal of the church for missions, and the sooner it is shown to be un-Scriptural the better for the cause of God. It neither consorts with prophecy, honours God, nor inspires the church with ardour. Far hence be it driven.

Charles Spurgeon

Warfield quotes, with approval, the words of William Temple who, in 1913, wrote: "The earth will in all probability be habitable for myriad’s of years yet. If Christianity is the final religion, the Church is still in its infancy. Two thousand years are as two days." The implication here is that in time the Church will cover the earth…

(On the Increase of His Government - Isa 9:7) "It would be easy to show that at our present rate of progress the kingdoms of this world never could become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ. Indeed, many in the Church are giving up the idea of it except on the occasion of the advent of Christ, which, as it chimes in with our own idleness, is likely to be a popular doctrine. I myself believe that King Jesus will reign, and the idols be utterly abolished; but I expect the same power which turned the world upside down once will still continue to do it. The Holy Ghost would never suffer the imputation to rest upon His holy name that He was not able to convert the world."

C. H. Spurgeon

The training of…mature men is the function of the church. The purpose of the church should not be to bring men into subjection to the church [as an end in itself], but rather to train them into a royal priesthood capable of bringing the world into subjection to Christ the King.

R. J. Rushdoony

Hope these might offer you some new ways of thinking,

 Blessings,

Richard Eric Gunby

Envoi, and a warning against playing with dangerous toys and dabbling in speculative theology

George, Who Played With a Dangerous Toy and Suffered a Catastrophe of Considerable Dimensions

by Hilaire Belloc

When George’s Grand Mama was told
that George had been as good as Gold
She promised in the Afternoon
to buy him an immense BALLOON;

And so she did, but when it came
It got into the candle flame
And being of a dangerous sort
Exploded! with a loud report

The lights went out! The windows broke!
The room was filled with reeking smoke
And in the darkness, shrieks and yells
Were mingled with electric bells
And falling masonry and groans
And crunching as of broken bones

And dreadful shrieks when, worst of all
The house itself began to fall!
It tottered, shuddering to and fro
Then crashed onto the street below -
Which happened to be Saville Row

When help arrived, among the dead
Were Cousin Mary, Little Fred,
The Footmen (both of them), the Groom,
The man that cleaned the billiard room,

The Chaplain and the Still-Room Maid
And I am dreadfully afraid
That Monsieur Champignon the Chef
May now be permanently deaf -
And both his aides are much the same
While George, who was in part to blame
Received, you will regret to hear
A nasty lump behind the ear.

Moral

The moral is that little boys
Should not be given dangerous toys