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Tetelestai (devolved)

I was afraid someone might ask me this! Amazing what you can get away with in the pulpit, but not on OST.

I was desperately searching for the commentary in which I found this nugget of information, but couldn’t find it in time for the post. So you may have to wait a little longer.

The commentary asserts that the form of the verb makes the rendering ‘It is perfectly perfect’ a valid translation of ‘tetalestai’. My enthusiasm for the concept is reflected in my expanded interpretation.

Whichever way you look at it, Jesus’s last word(s) were ‘It is finished’ - which is worth some discussion in itself.

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Comments

Re: Tetelestai

I just don’t see any basis for what is really only a tautology: ‘perfectly perfect’. Can something be imperfectly perfect? Moreover, teleō can’t really be made to mean ‘to make perfect’. It’s not a meaning given in Gingrich - other than an obscure quotation from Pseudo-Callisthenes (c. 200 AD), which is translated ‘power finds its consummation or reaches perfection in weakness’. I may say, ‘I have finished writing this comment’, but that doesn’t mean that I have made it perfect. It looks to me as though your commentator was trying to inject too much theology into a simple expression.

As for the meaning of the statement, well, what is there to go on? On what basis would we conclude, for example, as Leon Morris does, that Jesus is speaking of the ‘mighty work of redemption’ that he came to do in ‘dying on the cross for the world’s salvation’ (The Gospel According to John, 815 n. 73)? In view of verse 28 it may simply be that Jesus saw in the offer of vinegar (cf. Ps. 69:21) the fulfilment of a narrative in which God’s righteous one is afflicted by his enemies (69:18) but still hopes for ‘salvation’ (69:29) and the restoration of Zion (69:35-36). Indeed, it appears that he said ‘I thirst’ deliberately to bring that narrative into focus.

Re: Tetelestai

I will have to keep you in suspense a little longer concerning the interpretation of tetelestai as ‘perfectly perfect’. But just to give a clue - I didn’t randomly pick it off the internet.

Concerning which (the internet) - as they say, don’t even go there! There are about 2 million pastors (mostly from N. America, it seems) eagerly wishing to share their insights on the word to an avidly awaiting world. It is the name of a church, a web design company, a musical, a performing arts group - it goes on and on.

Of course, I did go there - and have seen the enemy: and maybe they are not entirely wrong. However, just to keep the pot boiling, I have placed a number of extracts from the net on a new thread, which anyone is welcome to comment on.

At the very least, it would be a bold person who dismissed the impact of the word on people down through the centuries, and sought to marginalise it as part of a minor narrative with little significance beyond itself. Hudson Taylor is just one example of a person who came to faith through the word - and went on to evangelise China. Worth considering, I’d have thought.

Re: Tetelestai

At the very least, it would be a bold person who dismissed the impact of the word on people down through the centuries, and sought to marginalise [sic] it as part of a minor narrative with little significance beyond itself.

I guess we should be thankful there are no such bold people involved in the conversation.

~jhimm

nothing lasts.
nothing is finished.
nothing is perfect.

Re: Tetelestai

Point taken, jhimm.

 The concluding paragraph should read:

"At the very least, it would be a bold person who dismissed the impact of the word on people down through the centuries. Hudson Taylor is just one example of a person who came to faith through the word - and went on to evangelise China. Worth considering, I’d have thought."

You see, I’m getting the hang of how things should be done.

By the way, why do you think the word has had such an impact on people?

Re: Tetelestai

By the way, why do you think the word has had such an impact on people?

I’ll pick this up on the other, newer, less cramped thread.

~jhimm

nothing lasts.
nothing is finished.
nothing is perfect.

Re: Tetelestai

At the very least, it would be a bold person who dismissed the impact of the word on people down through the centuries, and sought to marginalise it as part of a minor narrative with little significance beyond itself. Hudson Taylor is just one example of a person who came to faith through the word - and went on to evangelise China. Worth considering, I’d have thought.

This has nothing to do with the impact of the word. It has to do with what Jesus meant when he spoke it. My point is simply that the context suggests quite strongly that there is some connection with Psalm 69 and, indeed, that Jesus intentionally evoked that narrative when, knowing that the bowl of vinegar was there, he said, ‘I thirst’.

I disagree that Psalm 69 constitutes a minor narrative with no significance beyond itself. That is far too dismissive. But the more fundamental point is that it should matter to us what Jesus meant by the word (rather than the theological hyperbole that has subsequently been attached to it), and the best clues to that are in the context. Why shouldn’t Jesus again (cf. Mk. 15:34) deliberately recall a psalm in order to interpret his death and express his confidence in his Father? Would it have been a minor narrative for him?

Re: Tetelestai

Thanks, Andrew. And by the way, I did amend my previous post, in the light of jhimm’s correction; though ‘marginalize’ is a respectable word to be found in the OED.

John 19:29 probably is a reference to and enacting of psalm 69:21, which also draws our attention to the rest of the psalm. Not only are there further cross-references in the psalm specific to John’s gospel (eg psalm 69:9 and John 2:17), but the whole psalm obviously has relevance to Jesus in his suffering on the cross. And parts of the psalm are specifically contradicted by Jesus’s attitude on the cross (eg psalm 69:22-28; Jesus also said ‘Father forgive them’).

There is probably a lot more to be said here. But the narrative seems (to me, at least) to be a mirroring of what was happening to Jesus himself, rather than anything specifically to do with David - to whom the psalm is attributed, or to Israel in general - except as far as the persecuting enemies of David in the psalm reflect those who persecuted the prophets throughout Israel’s history, and ultimately those who persecuted Jesus himself.

The impact of tetelestai is of course to do with what Jesus meant when he spoke it - which is what many commentators have reflected on. It could mean that the suffering of psalm 69 is finished - but again, what else was the suffering in the psalm apart from a reflection to Jesus of his own suffering? This is why commentators are, to my mind, justified in ascribing significance to tetelestai as a word which sums up the completion of the process of atonement for sins (whose-ever), which Jesus was working through in his own person. This is what led Hudson Taylor to faith in Christ, through reading a book called ‘The Finished Work of Christ’, and the interpretation of the word ‘tetelestai’ in particular.

This isn’t a case of atomising works and verses, as jhimm suggests on another thread. It is, indeed, assessing what Jesus meant when he spoke it - in the light of what he was actually doing on the cross.

I still haven’t found ‘perfectly perfect’ - though it is echoed in at least one internet web commentary. (I’ll keep looking - I know it’s on my bookshelves somewhere). But there is plenty of evidence that ‘tetelestai’ had carried associations which, especially in context, make it more than a simple passive perfect tense of the verb - such as the use of the word for payment of receipts.

Re: Tetelestai

Maybe for those who focus much less on Jesus’ death on the cross as “the process of atonement” which he was working through, these kinds of elaborate interpretations of the word/phrase/passage seem a bit over-much?

Based on other phrases the gospels indicate that Jesus said while on the cross, it seems that he was much more caught up in his immediate, physical state of suffering and death than he was with some elaborate, cosmic, metaphysical balancing of the scales of sin and grace.

For all we know the “it” to which he is referring in “it is finished” is simply his own mortal existence.

I think maybe your question begs the semi-rhetorical question response: “Why does it matter so much what he meant by it?” Is it really worth so much scrutiny compared to other things he said?

~jhimm

nothing lasts.
nothing is finished.
nothing is perfect.

Re: Tetelestai

Jhimm, I agree that when Jesus said, ‘It is finished’, he was not thinking of ‘some elaborate, cosmic, metaphysical balancing of the scales of sin and grace’, and it’s certainly possible that he had in mind nothing more than the end of his own life. But if, for example, he quotes the opening line of Psalm 22 (‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’), we are bound to ask what significance he saw in that text for his suffering. Similarly, if John highlights the Old Testament background to the offer of vinegar to drink, we should ask what significance John, and perhaps Jesus himself, saw in Psalm 69. Repeatedly the Gospels ask us to interpret the events that are being related in light of key Old Testament narratives. So it seems likely to me that the words ‘It is finished’ in some way mark the fulfilment of that interpretation.

If Jesus lived out of the scriptures, it shouldn’t surprise us that the psalms were on his mind during his protracted death.

The reason I think it is worth the scrutiny is that it is indicative of, and determinative for, how we tell the whole story about Jesus. In itself it’s only a small detail, but it is out of these details that we construct the larger narrative about Jesus that shapes are worship, discipleship, mission, etc. - as, perhaps, a cynic philosopher or apocalyptic oddball or Israel’s deliverer or universal redeemer or my personal lord and saviour.

Re: Tetelestai

"it seems that he was much more caught up in his immediate, physical state of suffering and death than he was with some elaborate, cosmic, metaphysical balancing of the scales of sin and grace."

Maybe there’s another option jhimm, that Jesus’s words were neither simply a response to physical circumstances, nor an "elaborate, cosmic, metaphysical balancing of the scales of sin and grace", but that Jesus was dying on the cross to atone for Israels’s sins, your sins and mine; just as, in John 1:29, it says: "Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."

Is this "elaborate, cosmic, metaphysical"? Depends on your point of view, your understanding of Israel’s story, and whether you feel you have sins which need atoning for. It seems staggeringly simple to me.

In that sense, tetelestai would validly be interpreted as a ‘payment in full’ for the debt of sins which stood against us, as the usage of the word elsewhere suggests, and an emphatic declaration of triumph.

Why should we not give attention to Jesus’s words here, just as much as we do to words Jesus said elsewhere? The more so since the way in which people met their deaths was of particular interest in classical literature. And especially since the gospel accounts of the death of Jesus, as a proportion of the whole, encourage us to give it particular attention.

Re: Tetelestai

May I ask to whom you believe payment was made?

Re: Tetelestai

Ha, ha! Good question. I am not at all convinced by the argument that ‘It is finished’ is a commercial metaphor.

I have added a commentary on the text

Re: Tetelestai

Yes, I am sure there are many options.

And yes, I do consider substitutional atonement/penal substitution whatever other big words people use for it “elaborate, cosmic, metaphysical”.

And yes, I have sins that need forgiving.

No, I don’t think it is simple at all. Nothing in the Bible is simple. If it were, there would be no need for this site, for debate or discussion, for 2000 years of history of division, divisiveness and schism in the Church.

And no, I was not suggesting we should not give attention to his words here. Only that I am deeply confused by this entire discussion. It started with a sarcastic quip about my sig quote (which is a description of the Japanese notion of wabi-sabi, btw) and has blossomed into something much bigger which I am still at a loss to see the significance of.

And I say again, since this is only one of four gospel accounts of Jesus’ death, and the other three fail to support this specific quote, I think we run a risk of getting over-excited if we give it too much weight. I am not advocating -no weight at all-. Just that I am confused as to what it is we are seeking to find in -one word- which in all likelihood Jesus never actually said. John takes far more poetic license than the other gospels, John was written far later than the other three, and is attempting to articulate a theology far more complex than the other three.

Could it not be that the author of John is the one making connections between Psalm 69 and Jesus’ death and so put those words into Jesus’ mouth to make the connection? Is that another option to consider? Or is that heresy/blasphemy/some other pejorative that suggests I’m going to hell?

~jhimm

nothing lasts.
nothing is finished.
nothing is perfect.

Re: Tetelestai

For me, the tangential, sideways crab-like movements of conversation on the site forums often provide the most interesting developments - though I have to own responsibility for this particular diversion. Like the reformers, I believe in the perspicuity of scripture - so while I agree that much is complex, I don’t agree that nothing is simple. I think at heart, the message of the gospel (which is how the apostles defined the ‘word of God’) is simple, and that this provides a determinative way of interpreting scripture - OT and NT. But I would also willingly concede that it is not the only way of interpreting it - and other critical angles often provide insight and illumination even on this particular hermeneutical perspective.

So for me, exploring the connection between tetelestai and Psalm 69 is deeply interesting - though I don’t come to the identical conclusions as Andrew on his commentary. (His final inclusion of John 2:17 is, for me, the give-away. The verse is deeply determinative of what happened later in the narrative to Jesus on the cross).

Also, just to comment briefly on tetelestai as ‘payment in full’ - something I had not been aware of before this discussion began (so that is also something I have learned during the course of the discussion) - the usage of words in the cultural and social context of a language is, of course, part of the way in which we understand their meaning. For readers of John’s gospel in the 1st century, the association would probably have been obvious - especially in the light of redemption motifs that occur in the narrative itself. For readers of the NT writings - let’s assume 1st century readers had access to a range of them, if not all of them, the association would have been even stronger.

For instance, in Isaiah 40:2 - ‘paying the double’ refers to the practice of payment of a public debt by a signatory who would then fold over (or ‘double’) the parchment on which the debt had been publicised. The same imagery is seen in Colossians 2:14 - where a public debt is cancelled, and nailed, in this case, to the cross. This kind of imagery was well known, and provides a background of interpretation to John 19:30. It’s only if you don’t really want the redemption imagery to be considered as part of a narrative explanation of the story that you dismiss the interpretation.

To whom was the debt payable? Well, you’ll have to go into the whole history of scriptural interpretation to find out. But most ordinary readers of the scriptures today would say it’s obvious: the debt stood against God himself, as part of his holy character, through whom the law came, and which the death of Jesus on the cross came to repay. Or, in short, God paid the debt himself which no-one else was found worthy of paying. He did it through Jesus.

Re: Tetelestai

Does the answer God paid the debt owed to him to himself make any sense to you? Do you loan yourself money and then repay it to yourself, with interest? Would such a transaction have any substance?

Look, I don’t mean to be cute, but you know as well as I do that there at least 3 atonement motifs and if you include sub-motifs, many more. The satisfaction/ransom motif—especially the repayment of a debt sub-motif of satisfaction atonement is perhaps the easiest to criticize. Simple? No, not simple.

Re: Tetelestai

Does the answer God paid the debt owed to him to himself make any sense to you?

Yes, absolutely it does; it’s the only way it makes sense. But we are talking about metaphor - not literal payment of a literal financial debt. Where the debt is the consequence of broken law, and of disobedience to God through sin through the ages, there was no perfect representative of Israel/humanity who could stand in ‘payment’ of the debt by taking the due penalty for it. But the messiah, the suffering servant, the true representative of Israel, did. (This is, by the way, a fairly accurate representation of Isaiah 53:4-6 - which was central to the early church’s OT hermeneutic, but it also picks up the theme of the offering of the Passover lamb without blemish which was at the heart of Israel’s most important annual celebration, and at the heart of the story which formed her very identity).

So wherein did Jesus differ from any other representative of Israel, or humanity at large? The combined weight of evidence of things he said, things he represented (symbol), things he did (praxis), and the narrative he enacted, (NT gospels) combined with the very earliest beliefs of the early church in the things said about him, and the way they were said (NT epistles), leave us with no other credible, consistent alternative than to believe he was God in the flesh - and that this was the story which was told about him from within the very earliest years of his resurrection.

I would say there are at least five different ways in which the meaning of the death of Jesus is metaphorically presented - but of them all, the ransom/repayment of debt motif is dominant - because this was the dominant theme of the Passover, which is the largely unspoken commentary which overarches and informs the circumstances of the death itself.

Re: Tetelestai

I think I read somewhere that one of the prophets said that God told him that it is not the sacrifices that he wanted, but something else. Am I wrong on that?

Re: Tetelestai

Peter, tetelestai does not mean ‘it has been paid in full’. It means ‘it is finished’. The fact that it may be found on Greek papyri receipts may be significant but we have no way of knowing whether this particular nuance was in either Jesus’ or John’s mind because there is nothing else to link this very general term with the particular metaphorical context. For all we know know, Jewish mothers might have ended bed time stories to their children with the age-old formula ‘it is finished, time to sleep, children’.

It is a standard error of biblical interpretation to imagine that connotations that attach to a word in some particular context are part of the intrinsic meaning of the word and therefore relevant in all contexts.

There may be a commercial metaphor lying beneath the surface of Isaiah 40:2, though that is not certain. But still, there is nothing to connect that with Jesus’ cry from the cross. Colossians 2:14 certainly derives from a commercial-legal setting - unlike John 19:30 we have distinctive technical terms. But the metaphor is of cancellation, not of payment, and again there is nothing to connect it with John 19:30.

You complain that it’s ‘only if you don’t really want the redemption imagery to be considered as part of a narrative explanation of the story that you dismiss the interpretation’. On the contrary, it seems to me that it’s only because you want to find a certain form of redemption imagery in the text that you keep pressing the interpretation. Nothing in the passage establishes the connection with that area of thought. That is not to say that there is not redemptive significance in the word tetelestai - indeed, I think that there is, just not in the form that you suggest. The fact that two verses earlier (John 19:28) we have the same verb used with respect to Jesus in a way that is closely associated with the fulfilment of scripture seems to me more than enough reason to take this as the basic point of what he is saying.

Having said all that, I have to say that by far the most obvious meaning of the word in this story, as others have pointed out, is that Jesus’ life has finished: ‘it is finished’, he bows his head, he gives up the spirit. Any more theological sense would have to override, or at least sit comfortably with, that meaning.

Re: Tetelestai

Actually, Andrew, it is an error of biblical interpretation to assume that the context of meaning of a word is divorced from its social and cultural context. You have produced no evidence for what you assert - that paid in full was not at least one way in which the word would have been understood by 1st century readers. Very many people seem to disagree with you.

Further, very many people seem to disagree with you that tetelestai had no particular emphasis. Even if it meant simply It is finished, and did not carry any of the other overtones which are quite validly associated with the word, we would still probably be discussing whether it meant something beyond my physical life is finished - at one end of the spectrum, and my atoning sacrifice has been made at the other. This is because, as I mentioned elsewhere, the final words of Jesus are not just the final of words of any ordinary individual, but, at the least, of a very special individual indeed. Careful attention was likely to have been paid to what he said at his death. Further, his final words would have been understood in the light of his life as whole - not just as fragementary utterances with no connection to earlier sayings, or things said about him, or the broader narrative which he was acting out (see below).

Also, Just to add that the word used in John19:28 is not tetelestai, (though it’s from the same verb), and there are only two uses of this form of the verb in the NT. You have not proved anything by citing the connection between Psalm 69 and John 19:29 (in the first place) and John19:30 (in the second place). The narrative suggests to me just as powerfully that Jesus was suffering the suffering of the righteous in Israel’s history, but with a redemptive significance. This is brought out in the use of tetelestai (whether it has commercial redemptive significance or not), because it must be interpreted in the light of Jesus’s life as a whole - not least as presented in John’s gospel.

Leaving aside the use of redemption imagery on scores of occasions in Israel’s history in the OT, and in Jesus’s death on many occasions in the NT, the death of Jesus on the cross, and therefore in the whole of John 19, brings out the theme in a particular way. The greatest image of redemption in Israel’s story was the Passover, leading to release from slavery in Egypt, and ultimately entry into the promised land. When John makes this association with Jesus in John 1:29, the only place where it could have been fulfilled was in Jesus’s death on the cross - the place where the Passover lamb was slaughtered. Tetelestai is therefore also to be interpreted in the light of this narrative. There is no conflict at all between this narrative and the narrative of Psalm 69 - which Jesus invokes on the cross. The former narrative is, actually, the dominant narrative. It was at the Passover that Jesus was killed. Psalm 69 fits within that narrative as describing, for Jesus, the suffering he must undergo to fulfil the Passover narrative.

I may have exaggerated things in my complaint about redemption imagery
not being considered. You do of course consider it - actually, it’s at
the heart of what you have to say about John 19:29-30. What you do not
wish to consider is that redemption imagery had to do with anything
outside Israel and her history. That’s where we fundamentally differ. But I sometimes wonder if we are arguing over words, rather than meanings or significances. It’s important to you to assert that Israel’s narrative was her narrative, and not intended for universal significance. But actually, the promise to Abraham was of universal significance - it was a promise of blessing to the whole world, and a promise that Abraham’s descendants would fill the whole earth. Who were Abraham’s descendants? Those who appropriated the promise by faith. Were these only strictly those who were part of the original narrative, and believing Israel in the first century who survived calamity? Of course not. So for whom was the atoning death of Jesus intended? For Israel within her narrative? Certainly. But for the descendants of Israel, who would fill the whole earth, and who were not simply those who were part of the original narrative? Of course - it was for them as well, as was proved when the gospel of the death and resurrection of Jesus was preached to them, and they received the Spirit.

I don’t wish to suggest there are no differences between us, but I do think you have not really provided a satisfactory explanation of events and developments in history, foreseen in the scriptures, which make a universal atonement of Jesus an unavoidable conclusion and reality.

Re: Tetelestai

Apologies to everyone else for belabouring this one…

Yes, the meaning of a word is partly dependent on prevailing social and cultural usage, but in the case of a word as general as tetelestai, which could be used in an enormous range of contexts, I think we would need some indication from the literary context before settling on a particular connotation such as ‘it is paid’.

There are a couple of instances in the New Testament where teleō is used for the payment of taxes or tributes (Matt. 17:24; Rom. 13:6). That doesn’t seem especially relevant to Jesus’ death - and I don’t think you could make a case for thinking that without the context and the presence of the word ‘tax’ or ‘tribute’ teleō would have the same meaning.

It is not my view that ‘It is finished’ has ‘no particular emphasis’ - you entirely misrepresent my argument. My point is rather that it gets its significance not from a commercial atonement metaphor but from a number of biblical narratives (Ps. 69 being the most immediately relevant).

Sorry, the verb in 19:28 is exactly the same: Jesus knew that all things have been finished (tetelestai); and in order that the scripture might be finished (teleiōthē), he said, ’I thirst’. These are the only two instances where this form of the verb occurs in the New Testament, though how significant that is, I’m not sure.

The narrative suggests to me just as powerfully that Jesus was suffering the suffering of the righteous in Israel’s history, but with a redemptive significance. This is brought out in the use of tetelestai (whether it has commercial redemptive significance or not), because it must be interpreted in the light of Jesus’s life as a whole - not least as presented in John’s gospel.

Here I basically agree with you. I said in the commentary that it is likely that Isaiah 53 is one of the narratives that (in principle at least) comes to a head in Jesus’ cry ‘It is finished’. All I ever objected to was what I saw as the unwarranted introduction of the ‘it is paid in full’ imagery. I think that Jesus’ death as it is depicted in the Gospels needs to be explained narratively and historically, not by reference to later, overdeveloped theories of atonement.

It would be absurd of me to argue that Israel’s narrative was ‘not intended for universal significance’. I have never maintained that. My argument is that the basic story of salvation in the New Testament is as follows: Jesus died to save Israel from the devastating consequences of its sins, but that salvation had enormous implications for the nations, not least in making it possible for Gentiles to become part of this restored and forgiven people. To some degree this story is abbreviated in the New Testament to a universal summary (in John, for example, but not in synoptics).

So I agree that Jesus’ death had universal significance - if not, it would have no relevance to me. The issue is how it has universal significance. I think the angel got it right when he said to Joseph: ‘you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins’ (Matt. 1:21). That is the ‘good news’ in a nutshell. Jesus saved Israel - and saved Israel went on to fulfil the promise to Abraham, becoming a blessing to the nations.

Re: Tetelestai

Very many people seem to disagree with you.

Further, very many people seem to disagree with you that tetelestai had no particular emphasis.

You’ve made comments like this on several occasions on this topic. I fail to see how it is relevant. Lots of people can all be wrong, en masse. Lots of people can all be right, en masse. There can be fractured dissent in the midst of an orthodoxy that is more correct than the prevailing orthodoxy. Isn’t that the whole point of Luther’s reformation in the first place?

Who cares how many people do or do not agree with any given interpretation. An appeal to numbers is not an appeal to authority. Why do you keep going there?

~jhimm

nothing lasts.
nothing is finished.
nothing is perfect.

Re: Tetelestai

I would have hoped you would pay more attention to my arguments than pick out issues which are peripheral to them.

Peripheral, but not insignificant. If I find myself saying things which directly contradict the studied opinions of many, I would at least want to be very careful that what I asserted could be thoroughly substantiated.

Andrew’s counter-argument (to the social and cultural usage of the word) was imaginary and trivial. Evidence seems to exist for the usage of the word
tetelestai as paid in full.

P.S. I am going to see the UK film ‘Atonement’ tonight - Keira Knightley/James Macavoy. Strange coincidence?

Atonement

Have you read the book, Peter? It’s got a metafictional twist reminiscent of our most recent labyrinthine tour of Sir Toby’s. I think you should post a review, possibly including theological implications.

Re: Tetelestai

I would have hoped you would pay more attention to my arguments than pick out issues which are peripheral to them.

I tried reacting to your arguments and you completely ignored those aspects of what I wrote - repeatedly. So I gave up.

I don’t find a critique of your repeated appeals to numbers to be peripheral at all. It is an appeal you find compelling. I don’t, many others here don’t either. I don’t see anyone advocating positions which lack substantiation.

I see no reason not to believe that this word/phrase means “it is finished” (his perfect mission), and “it is paid in full” and “my life ends now”. Just as I am comfortable with the view that Jesus was simply focused on his own death, I am equally comfortable with the idea that Jesus was thinking about several things simultaneously and carefully chose this word/phrase to illustrate all of them in a magnificent moment of erudite eloquence. If we can learn something from each one (he completed the mission he set out to fulfill before his death, he atoned for our sins and the debt was paid, he was fully human and aware of his mortality in that moment), then they are all true in some small way. I see no compelling, substantiated argument why any of them is “wrong”.

~jhimm

nothing lasts.
nothing is finished.
nothing is perfect.

Re: Tetelestai

For me, the tangential, sideways crab-like movements of conversation on the site forums often provide the most interesting developments - though I have to own responsibility for this particular diversion.

Fair enough. Given how the conversation started, I’ve been waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. I had gotten the impression you were trying to construct some kind of explanation for why my .sig lines are “wrong” or “out of bounds” or inappropriate or something. So it has been kind of disconcerting to see this open up into quite a number of parallel threads across multiple posts at this point.

Like the reformers, I believe in the perspicuity of scripture - so while I agree that much is complex, I don’t agree that nothing is simple.

I’ll be 100% up front with you. My initial exposure to reformed theology while at college and the way I saw those who identified as reformed conduct themselves in discussions with those with whom they did not agree was one of the primary reasons I eventually converted to Roman Catholicism. The recent “controversy” over Mark Driscoll’s critique of the emerging church movement has re-affirmed my decision as correct for me. So there’s my bias and baggage on the table.

I think at heart, the message of the gospel (which is how the apostles defined the ‘word of God’) is simple, and that this provides a determinative way of interpreting scripture - OT and NT.

That’s certainly not something we’re either going to come to agreement on or change each other’s mind about, so not much point in pursuing it much further. All I will say is that while I agree that “the message of the gospel” at its core is very simple, I can’t agree that provides the definitive, clarifying lens through which to interpret scripture. At least not insofar as that should automatically produce some kind of self-evident, simple result which should be clear to any thinking person of reasonable aptitude. There are simply too many human finger-prints on the text to be able to take that as a primary approach.

The rest of this doesn’t appear to be a response to me specifically since it is unrelated to anything I’ve said, so I’m not quite sure what to do with it.

You keep skipping over my comments about the reliability of the source and the cohesiveness across accounts, so I will conclude that discussion doesn’t interest you and drop it.

I guess once again I’m done. :)

~jhimm

nothing lasts.
nothing is finished.
nothing is perfect.

Re: Tetelestai

Save me, O God,
for the waters have come up to my neck.”

Interesting considering that those executed via crucifixion supposedly died from a “drowning” type effect when the lungs filled with fluid.

~jhimm

nothing lasts.
nothing is finished.
nothing is perfect.

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