Belief in traditional Christianity
|
Here are 7 things that make it hard for me to believe in traditional Christianity. 1. How can Christ be both God and man - the idea teeters on the edge of nonsense. 2. Why is God so absent? 3. The babble of voices - the myriad conflicting claims of Christianity. 4. The (apparent) claim that we can only find God (salvation) through Jesus. This dismissal of the beliefs of Buddhists, Moslems, Hindus etc etc seems like massive cultural hubris - which found brutal expression during the period of European colonisation. 5. The fact that our planet is an infinitesimally tiny speck in a universe of unimaginable vastness; and the claim that everything in the universe revolves around what happened in a small place on this earth during an eye-blink of time. 6. That (according to the scriptures) God can intervene on earth to punish and reward, and to pursue his own plans and projects, but can sit idly by while the Holocaust occurs. 7. The fact that Christians have so often been a force for evil in the world. Why then do I believe? 1. The beauty and power of the story. 2. The hope that it is true. |
- Login or register to post comments
- Email this page
Comments
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Paul,
I’m a little confused by the implication that a person would “believe in Christianity”. What does that mean? For me the #1 problem I have with Christianity is that it has become something we are asked to “believe in”. The original idea was that we would gather a community around the belief in Jesus’ vision for a new world rule (the kingdom of God). We were supposed to have faith in the vision of Jesus for change not cultivate a belief in a 1st century understaning of God. At some point, the message became twisted into believing that a set of principles about how the universe worked and a particular definition of God’s nature or “his” attributes.
I think that beneath your 7 difficulties lies this one main concept. What if being a Christian isn’t about getting any particular beliefs correct or forcing our modern minds into denial about the working of the Universe? What if many belief systems about God or the working of the universe are completely compatible with the idea of joining a community built around the vision of Jesus for a new rule/kingdom on earth? Doesn’t that make items #1-7 go away as problems and still keep the beauty of the story in tact as a story that presents the vision?
Lastly, would it be possible for you to shift your hope from being hopeful that a particular story is true into being hopeful that the vision communicated within the story will BECOME true? I think that the difficulties we all have experienced with traditional Christianity are self-inflicted wounds. It doesn’t have to be so hard.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
You ask some interesting questions, some of which have been around in some form for a long time. I'll do the best I am able to answer, I don't think my answers will be conclusive, and can only hope they will be a bit helpful.
1. The Bible reveals God as being someone high above us, or to use come more common ways of putting it, God is not a material being, but spirit. As such, I suspect that things that would be impossible in a material sense are not so for God.
I think that when we read things about Him that seem to "teeter on the edge of nonsense", this is in some sense a question of faith—will we believe what God says about Himself even if we can't make sens of it, or will we fall back on our own understanding.
2. Could you tell us a bit more by what you mean by God being absent? I can see a few different meaning to that, but would rather get things a bit clearer.
3. I know that there are many different things being said by real Christians and those who aren't real. I suppose there are things that aren't worth getting worked up over, but some things are. The best direction I can point you towards is to the scriptures, and no that's not a cop-out answer either.
4. It isn't an apparent claim, but a real one, one that Jesus made and that is further claimed and supported in the Bible. It isn't cultural hubris, it's the truth.
5. To borrow an argument from C.S. Lewis, what size of universe would make you happy?
6. This is an old question—the question of pain and evil. Theologians and philosophers have thought about this for a long time, and I'd suppose finding their opinions would not be too difficult. For now, I'll only say these things…1—God is good, and He loves and wants what is best for us. 2—God allows us to do both good and horrible things to each other, He has given us some measure of say and lets our actions have real consequences. 3—There will be a judgment day, and may it be soon.
7. Being a Christian has never meant being perfect, and someone claiming to be Christian has not meant that person has been Christian. I also should ask what you mean by Christians being "a force of evil".
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Paul,
I echo your points. As jazzact said, some have been around a long time. This doesn't detract from their pointedness, however.
But some of the points do bear looking at from various angles.
2. This is a question that is not, to my mind specifically a problem with Christianity, but a problem with any kind of belief system in the divine. To my mind it's closely related to points 6 and 7 as well. Personally, I don't think any system of explaining these issues does total justice to it - there is a point at which one must believe (trust), or not believe.
3. I wonder what myriad of voices and babble you're talking about. In some sense, the myriad is to be celebrated, as it reflects a group/culture's own input into the Christian story through the ages. But what do you mean by this?
4. I agree that the Europeans (of whom I'm one) have done a monstrously bad job in a lot of ways. But I agree with jazzact that the claim of the uniqueness of the message and way of Jesus is rooted in the texts themselves. That Europe mangled that presentation of the message gives us more layers of garbage to work through before we can hear and judge the claim on it's own terms. In my read of the NT, this issue was as much a problem then as it is now. Certainly the terms Kurios and Soter, as applied to Jesus, caused enough trouble for the early Christians. Jesus is not the only person to have made exclusive claims to truth, though, so the issue of a claim to truth is a bleat against exclusivist faith in general.
I honestly find it hard to hang on to a trust in Jesus if it's only a hope (in the vague sense of the word) that it's true. It seems to me that the crux of Christianity is that it does demand a trust that the story is a real explanation of the way the universe works. I too struggle with actually believing this, and tend to think that if it's not true, then it's simply another beautiful ideology. Something worth aiming at as an ideology, but not a the expression of salvation for mankind. As an aside, I find that Andrew's series on Toward an emerging theology and his bit on "my tentative beliefs" helpful reflections with regard to some of your points.
Danutz,
I think it helps to think about community instead of "belief in Christianity". The complication is that the community that Jesus started - and his vision for a new world - were both rooted within the historical traditions of Judaism. The vision is a kind of belief about the universe - how it came to be, how it is ruled by God, where he wants it to go - and this does reflect very directly upon Paul's points. It helps to think of working to make the world into the kind of place the vision of Jesus wants it to be, but I think that the vision of Jesus (let alone Paul, Peter, James or John) is not simply a new kind of society that humans implement. If it is simply an issue of commmunity, then we do not need to worship Jesus. All we need are his ideals. And then we simply have an ideology - a beautiful one - but still just an ideology which is as subjective as any other on the planet.
Does this make sense to you?
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Yes, it makes sense to me Russ. In one way, I think it is true that all we need is his ideology. Of course we also need his life to show us an example of how to live the message. Then we need his death to show us the extreme lengths we must go. Then we need his story that is reborn in our hearts to inspire us.
I don’t see any compelling argument in the Bible that says we need to adopt an ancient worldview in order to be Christian. The stories contain powerful truths but are all told through an ancient worldview with an ancient image of God. Christians are people that seek to extract the meaning and vision from those stories and live out those meanings, but nowhere does it suggest that we need to also adopt their view of the universe and how it is constructed or how we percieve the role of a creator. Worldviews are constantly changing and the purpose of Christianity is not to drive a stake in the ground and declare that the current view (or a past view) is the correct one.
I choose to accept Christ’s passion not his worldview. I think he got his message about peace, justice, and community correct, but I don’t care much for his image of God which was a product of his time. Worldviews shift all the time. Our worldview may radically change next year or in the next decade, but I think the message of Jesus transcends the views of any people at any point in the history of science and philosophy.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
The problem I have with danutz's position is this—who are we to decide what parts of Jesus' worldview we are to accept or not!? Are we so far advanced that we can judge the words of the God Himself as being true or not? Or is it not hubris of the highest order to, as danuts himself does in another discussion, call God wrong?
To say that one does not agree with Jesus' views of God is to say that one does not agree with Jesus' views of Himself. If Jesus says something about God, then again, it seems to height of pride to say that Jesus was wrong.
Finally, and this is something that seems to be quite common, we have what seems to be an acceptance of the 'nice things' Jesus said, but attempts to either ignore or explain away the 'not nice things' Jesus also said. This is simply not intellectually honest—it treats Jesus like a buffet, pick and choose your beliefs, have a nice side order of "love your neighbor" but pass on the "few will find the way to salvation". A little too hot and spicy for our tastes.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
jazzact13,
I’m not suggesting that anyone decide what parts of the message to accept. I’m suggesting that we accept NONE of the first century WORLDVIEW but we should accept ALL of its principles about life, relationships, politics, and mission. Let’s leave the world view to the best minds that we have at any point in history. It will likely change soon.
I have no idea where you get the idea this has anything to do with pride. I feel it is much more humble to reject the idea that we can have the last word on the universe or God. It is more humble to realize that we only know what we know now and that could change. I’m making an attempt to leave my judgement out of the issue and leave ANY worldview issues out as well. What is left is a message that transcends time.
As far as picking and choosing, I’m clearly NOT doing that. I’m dividing the information of the bible into 2 categories of data. One is the intended message and the other is the byproduct of the storytellers situation:
1) messages about themes for living and building community
2) worldview (how people understand the universe and God or gods)
You can’t tell a story without communicating a great deal about your worldview but rarely is that your intended message. The point of the Bible is not to indoctrinate people into a particular worldview that was held at that time. The purpose was to communicate particular messages/themes (item#1). Part of any story that we must understand is that it is told through a worldview but that is not what it attempts to teach.
It is ironic that traditional Christianity seems to have adopted the worldview which tags along with the message from its ancient storytellers but often ignored its message.
Also I think you clearly have the degree of difficulty backwards. Loving your neighbor is the difficult aspect of Jesus message which I’ve chosen to keep (along with ALL his other teachings and messages). Believing YOUR own beliefs make you one of the “few” that get salvation is pretty easy. Every religion seems to do that without much effort. It seems like you have opted for the easy option and I’ve opted for the narrow road.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
What, then, do you consider to be "first century worldview" that we should not accept? Why should I not think that the so-called principles you hold to are not themselves products of the "first century worldview" and should be either dismissed or reinterpreted as I think should be best?
Where do I get the idea of pride? Here's a quote of yours from the "…manifest of hope" thread…
"Sometimes the answer is that the Bible is wrong. Sometimes the characters were wrong and sometimes the authors were wrong and when the authors write God as doing wrong things then in that context, God is wrong too!"
This quote absolutely reeks of pride, whether you realize it or not. You have, in effect, put yourself above God, and judging your own opinions as being better then God's.
Are you picking and choose? I can only say that from what I have read of yours is that such is exactly and clearly what you are doing.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Jazzact13,
So you really think that I feel I'm "above God". Really? Is that honest or the theatrics of divisive debate. I hope we can all seek the heart of God together and stay above those kinds of statements. I know you guys are seeking God so I don't make statements like that even when we disagree.
Maybe I don't write well enough to make that clear, but I hope you don't read that statement assume I think God is actually wrong. If you read the comment again (a comment I STILL stand by) you should be able to see that what I'm suggesting is that when people place bad things into the mouth of God then IN THAT CONTEXT God is wrong (meaning that the person who put those words there is actually the one that is wrong). Everytime someone says "God says xyz" that doesn't mean God is saying it. Actually it is usually NOT God.
I hope that is clear, but who knows what you will hear when you read it. At this point I suspect your objective is to hear the worst possible thing that could somehow be misinterpreted from what I say. I've lost in your eyes before I start because you (and often Andrew) want to lump the baggage of all perversions of modern secularism onto my back. I don't get to express my views, I have to have you guys lump the views of hundreds of other on top of me.
The point of my comments in that other thread is that when people do horrible things like wipe out entire tribes of people including women and children or fly airplanes into the world trade center and then claim that "God told me to do it so it is justified". Guess what? THAT ISN'T GOD and it doesn't matter if later on someone decides to cannonize their writings. It is still NOT God. It does however tell us that they thought it was God and that is very important and illuminating when understading the rest of their writtings. It gives us additional information to set the context for what they say.
I made a simple suggestion that we should understand the worldview of people writing scripture in order to derive their original meaning and then accept the meaning without enforcing the worldview onto modern people. How can anyone see that as a bad thing? I don't know of a single scholar that does anything different including the holy Tom Wright.
I think you guys really want me to be saying something that I'm not saying. Maybe life would be easier if everyone that disagreed with you was evil so that it makes your viewpoint look better. I think many of these conversations devlolve to the point of stupidity and divisiveness. That is exactly what C.S. Lewis often did. He created a false dichotomy so that he could shoot down the opposing view as absurd in order to make his view look like a winner (either Jesus is God as he said or a lunatic). The problem is that there are more than 2 options and he ignores those other options in an attempt to skew the debate.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
To quote from Romans 3, "let God be true, and every man a liar".
Do I think you are putting yourself above God? I was being honest when I said that, and I stick to it. Having looked up some of the modern thinkers you've put forth, such as Crossan, and seeing there own connection to the that travesty that is the Jesus Seminar, I stick even more to it. Any group that wants to contend that the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas is truer to Christ then the Gospels of the Bible cannot be taken seriously by me, except as one takes a sickness seriously, and if these are the kinds of people you want to put forth as the hope for Christianity in a postmodern world, then Christianity has no hope.
But I will not prune and deform God's Word simply to fit my own ideas. Jesus did not come so that we could change His life and words to fit ourselves, but to change us, to make us right with God, not God right with us.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
My own words are clumsy, I can't seem to say what needs to be said. Let me try some other people's words, which can be found at http://www.apologeticsindex.org/301-emerging-church-versus-scripture
“I have often heard of ‘narrow-minded views’, and ‘old-fashioned notions’, and ‘brimstone theology’, and the like. I have often been told that ‘broad’ views are wanted in the present day. I wish to be as broad as the Bible, neither less nor more. I say that he is the narrow-minded theologian, who pares down such parts of the Bible as the natural heart dislikes, and rejects any portion of the counsel of God.”J. C. Ryle
“We have a faith to preach, my brethren, and we are sent forth with a message from God. We are not left to fabricate the message as we go along. We are not sent forth by our Master with this kind of general commission - ‘As you shall think in your heart and invent in your head as you march on, so preach. Keep abreast of the times. Whatever the people want to hear, tell them that, and they shall be saved.’ Verily, we read not so. There is something definite in the Bible. We ought to preach the gospel, not as our views at all, but as the mind of God-the testimony of Jehovah concerning his own Son, and in reference to salvation for lost men. If we had been entrusted with the making of the gospel, we might have altered it to suit the taste of this modest century, but never having been employed to originate the good news, but merely to repeat it, we dare not stir beyond the record. What we have been taught of God we teach. If we do not do this, we are not fit for our position.”Charles Spurgeon
“We should not adjust the Bible to the age, but before we have done with it, by God’s grace, we shall adjust the age to the Bible.”Charles Spurgeon
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
The problem is, Danutz, that Jesus’ ideas about ‘peace, justice, and community correct’ are so deeply and consistently grounded in the Old Testament that I really don’t see how you can extract the moral values from the particular belief in YHWH and the story about a particular historical community (as Russ says) without doing serious damage to the text - and to the integrity of the person of Jesus.
I know you don’t like this and I know we’ve just had this conversation, but it still sounds to me as though your ethical and religious position is only incidentally Christian - and incidentally Christian is not really Christian at all. I don’t think in the long run that we will find good answers to Paul’s excellent questions by collapsing the biblical narrative down to a few worthy moral values. I believe that there is a lot that is true in what you assert, but I don’t think it is necessary to reject Jesus’ understanding of God in order to affirm it.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
“a few worthy moral values”? come on Andrew that isn’t at all what I’ve ever said. That is pretty divisive debate. It isn’t helpful to over simplify a person’s statments to the point that they become absurd. A message about a radical life transformation that impacts the entire world and demands our allegiance to the point of complete self-sacrifice and our own death is hardly “a few worthy moral values”.
It seems like you really want me to be saying “Jesus just taught us to be kind” because if that is what I’m saying you can shoot down my arguments as trivializing Christianity. You can’t make my arguments a straw man that sits in the polar opposite of your own views so that you can burn it down to prove you are right. That isn’t fair and I expected more from you Andrew.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Some responses
Paul, I am not excluding anything. These things are excluded on there own by not existing. If they start existing tomorrow, then we can put them back in. I don't think we should pick what phenomenon are in or out (real or metaphorical). We should just observe reality and speak the truth about what we find. The point of theology is not to change reality, but instead it simply describes our reality. If you have some evidence that these things exist then I'll be the first to put them in. I'd prefer it that way. Without that evidence, then lets just go with what is most practicle and most accepted given what we know at the present moment. That is all we can do.
Paul, you said: I am far from being a literalist as far as the Bible goes (for example, I do not believe that the Genesis creation account is literally true) but your approach eviscerates the gospels: it leaves Jesus as someone comparable to Socrates or Buddha. The only question remaining is whether his ethical and social vision is superior to theirs.
Why would it be a bad thing to not be superior? Why the need to compete? Can you only follow Jesus IF and only IF he wins some kind of cosmic battle for supremacy? What is so bad about being compared to the Buddha? Can you think for a minute how demeaning that sounds to Buddhists? It seems to me that the Gospel writers go out of their way to present Jesus as coming from humble means even to the point of giving him an extremely humble birth story and even more demeaning death.
In my view, traditional Christianity eviscerates Jesus by turning him into an unbelievable proposition like the tooth fairy that could only exist inside a pre-modern mind. Can we please have more respect for Jesus than to turn him into some thing so trivial as a "god". Can we raise him up to a higher level so his words can be treated as valuable and timeless rather than ancient and irrelevant?
The answers to your 7 questions are pretty easy to see but it requires removing that ancient worldview as a lens. After removing that lens, the transformational power of Jesus comes alive.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Some responses
I can think of at least one experience I had which may have been some kind of experience of God. It wasn't a pillar of fire, or a light shining from the sky, and it wasn't something anyone else could have noticed. But by an large, I haven't had the dreams and visions and extreme encounters some claim to have had. By and large, my experiences of God have more through what seems to normal ways; for example, small leadings and provisions, apparent coincidences that weren't really coincidences, times when God's Word seemed to say something quite direct to whatever I was going through.
Would I be accurate in thinking that what you mean by the absence of God is that He doesn't do the kinds of things like the Bible says He did at other times? By that, I mean He doesn't send manna from heaven, doesn't seem to raise many people from the dead, and one simply can't seem to find a prophet worth listening to lately.
It was not my intention to seem to be dismissing your questions. My intent, for example, with no. 4 was to point you to what Jesus and the rest of scripture says, and not what may seem fair to us. I think that God is fair and just, and if the Bible says Jesus is the only way, it isn't because God is playing games, and I admit that there are times even to me when God's ways don't always seem fair. But my faith is in God, not my own sense of fairness, and I trust God and His judgments more then my own.
Which I suppose also leads to no. 6. There is no easy answer, and I know that whatever I say is at best only a small part of the truth. I was showing you what makes sense to me—God is good, God allows us to both help and harm each other, and there is justice. My statements are not the finally word, they may be closer to the beginning, but I think they are true.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Danutz, we’re always walking a fine line between clarity and caricature - and we are bound to overstep it occasionally. I accept that you have always made the argument about justice in its fullest sense a matter of supreme significance - though it seems to me that Paul has drawn similar conclusions about your program. That’s an apology - but my concern remains: can this commitment, as profound as it is, honestly be labelled ‘Christian’ - is it genuinely in continuity with the agenda of Jesus of Nazareth - if it is disconnected from the original narrative to the extent that you wish?
So I suppose that the big question we need to address - without misrepresenting each other - is something like: What exactly is lost if we take the sort of ‘liberal’ option that you recommend, and what is the impact of that loss on our claim to be in continuity with the agenda of Jesus of Nazareth? Or more simply: What does it mean to be ‘Christian’?
In responding to this I want to repeat the point I made with regard to An Emergent Manifesto of Hope that we are not addressing the difficult theological questions with sufficient imagination. I think that the modern liberal option is as narrow and unimaginative as the modern evangelical option. There are theological possibilities in a narrative-historical reading of the New Testament that we have only just begun to explore, and which I think will at least help us to formulate responses to Paul’s questions that don’t require us to take the easy of option of excluding from our theology everything that does not cohere with a modern worldview.
For example, I think we gain a very interesting perspective on the question of Jesus’ divinity if we remove it from the realm of an abstract metaphysics that crudely asserts that Jesus is both God and man and view it in relation to a narrative of confrontation with Roman imperial theology - I would suggest that we should read Phil. 2:5-11 in this way. I’m not sure where that will lead, but it is a priori a reasonable thing to do, and worth exploring much further before resorting to the liberal escape clause.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: He did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped
Paul, this is very interesting. I’ve responded in a separate post.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Andrew,
First let me say that your last point about understanding Jesus divinity as a product of the confrontation with Roman imperial theology is right on target. I agree with that 100%. That is EXACTLY the liberal view and Borg and Crossan have gone there and explained that in great detail in a number of books. Unlike you, I AM sure where that will lead because I've seen the theological perspectives of Borg and Crossan develop over that last 5-10 years as they have expanded that conversation in their books. I like where it leads because it produces a Christianity that has a much better chance of surviving in a post modern world. I've seen how it has lead my faith and it is a good thing. It saved my faith, as I'm certain it can save the faith of so many that are crying out for this message but are blocked from hearing it.
I have no idea why you seem to shine favorable light onto one of the most important points in the liberal view of Jesus (his divinity as a product of narratives that paint a picture of Jesus in opposition to Roman Imperial Theology), then you seem to suggest that liberal theology is an "escape clause". I think you have a completely biased perspective of what liberal theology really is. There is some serious language and terminology decay and misinterpretation happening in our conversations.
Now to address your questions…
What exactly is lost if we take the sort of ‘liberal’ option that you recommend, and what is the impact of that loss on our claim to be in continuity with the agenda of Jesus of Nazareth? Or more simply: What does it mean to be ‘Christian’?
You like loaded questions don't you? Let's instead look at what is gained by liberal theology.
The first thing that we gain is the survival of Christianity in post-enlightenment and now post-modern understandings of the universe. We gain a robust faith that no longer is dependent on a particular worldview as we wipe the message clean of any ancient understandings of the world and come away with a message that transcends culture. Now by taking away those worldview and cultural underpinnings I don't suggest we throw them away. We actually diagnose them in great detail to see how they have flavored the message, but the goal is to perpetuate the message rather than the worldview.
Second, we gain a clear look at the agenda of Jesus of Nazareth rather than the agenda of those that followed and adapted his message to suit their needs. The Jesus that is left for us is a much more robust and applicable character. The deified Jesus of the later Christian traditions is increasingly irrelevant and Christianity should find its hope in the Jesus that lies beneath the symbolism and legends. The symbolism should be kept and valued as the vehicle which preserved the message but recognized as metaphorical products of the narratives. Keep the message and the vehicle but recognize where one starts and the other ends. That is sound Exegesis.
What is lost in liberal theology is the divisive competitive drive for a monopoly on truth and a divine pecking order that has plagued Christianity for centuries and stained its hands with blood. Also lost is the need to create an artificial war between faith and science which faith is destined to loose. We stand to loose a "God in the gaps" which is shrinking with each discovery. What we gain is a God whose immanent presence no longer lives in fear of what may be found next under a microscope, at the core of a black hole, or buried under the sand in a desert tomb.
What does it mean to be Christian? To accept the vision of Jesus as my own and take my part in making that vision a reality.
When we are done making this paradigm shift, then the message seems very clear. Jesus' goal was no different than Moses, Amos, Micah, and John the Baptist. He taught about the same just society as his leaders before him. The difference with Jesus was that he resisted the urge to use the methods of Empire (violence, domination, and exclusion) to gain this justice. His method was to acheive this justice through individual transformation from within and non-violent protest without. Jesus says that the kingdom is not part of "this world" meaning that it is not something that can exist within the current domain of Roman Imperialism. It is exists within us and only can be manifest fully outside the rule of any Empire (e.g. outside "his current world"). As long as any Empire or Imperialistic value system exists, then the kingdom cannot be an external reality fully experienced by all. It is "at hand" in us when we accept the vision and it becomes reality as we slowly wipe out the values of Empire and create a kingdom on earth that mirrors the kingdom of Heaven.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Danuts, answer this, please—Was Jesus God incarnate, or was that simply some kind of fictional construct that you dismiss along with all of the "first century worldview" stuff you also feel free to dismiss?
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
jazzact13,
My answer is YES! But the problem with boiling this down to a simply yes or no question is that now you will have to figure out what I meant by yes and I’ll have to realize my answer was based on what I assume you actually meant by “God incarnate”. I imagine that we actually mean very different things so your attempt to simplfy the discussion doesn’t really help.
No Christian answers that question as “No”. Most Buddhists that I know even answer that question as “Yes”. The answer depends on what you mean by “God incarnate”. It could be a dozen different things. You might want to take a stab at defining what that means for you but this thread may not be the best place for that discussion. I think Andrew has started another thread along those lines.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
You imagine we mean very different things? Well, this is interesting. What part of "yes" don't we understand, eh?
So, what is your stance, something close to what you claim the Buddhist to be? Is it something like "Jesus was a man who attained his true god-ness and is only trying to help us achieve it as well"?
I really don't think I'm the one who has to define or redefine what "God incarnate" means, danutz. It's a pretty clear description and most Christians would know what was meant by it. As such, the one who wants to play redefining games is the one who should clarify things for the rest of us.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
jazzact13,
You still need to define “God Incarnate” before we can determine where we agree and disagree. That is an “extra-biblical” phrase so it is something that has been implied on top of the texts. I have no problem with it but I likely don’t mean the same thing as you. The phrase itself IS in fact a redefinition of what Jesus was. So in a sense, I’m redifining a redefinition in order to get back to an original meaning.
For me, to incarnate something means to live out an idea or in a metaphorical sense make an idea “flesh”. I don’t see it as meaning a spiritual being has become a physical being. I don’t believe in spiritual “beings” so that doesn’t even fit on my radar screen. What is a spritual being? Are we to believe in ghosts or literal disembodied souls now in the 21st century? Are we having this conversation in a mental institution?
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
I don’t believe in
I don’t believe in spiritual “beings” so that doesn’t even fit on my radar screen. What is a spritual being? Are we to believe in ghosts or literal disembodied souls now in the 21st century? Are we having this conversation in a mental institution?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
From "Hamlet"
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Paul
The disarming simplicity of your questions (and your own personal response) masks the profundity and reach of their implications. I note that you did not ask for comments - you were just expressing your own position. Will that preclude a response? No way!
1. How can Christ be both God and man? What better way for God to demonstrate his compassion for fallen man in a fallen world, than to come, as John Newman’s hymn had it: ‘In man, for man’?
2. Why is God so absent? One response to this question might be: Why are we so blind to his presence? One person looks at the natural world, and sees only blind, impersonal forces offering no comfort; another sees a natural world (more specifically, the heavens and skies) as declaring the glory of God - “Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” Admittedly, this is speaking of words/speech, but words/speech implies a person who is speaking, which I take to be one of the hallmarks of presence.
3. The babble of voices and conflicting claims of Christianity. Actually, the diversity of intrepetation is something that I personally find attractive. It’s only when interpretation crosses a line into denial of aspects of the story which I would take to be its core components that diversity becomes, for me, a problem.
4. The exclusivism of its claims. Yes, this is what some have called: ‘the scandal of particularity’ (I think!). One issue is that the story of Israel, and hence of Jesus, is not the story of any other faith. Another issue is that through Israel, and Jesus, God addressed more general problems to do with the world in a way that they were not addressed by other faiths. On the other hand, this is not to say that there is no truth in other faiths, or that God cannot be found within them.
5. The unimaginable vastness of the universe. But so far, despite the breathlessness of each proclamation that the most basic forms of life might exist somewhere else in the universe, hard evidence of such has failed to materialise. The burden of proof rests with those who claim that life must exist somewhere else. Meanwhile, the particular problems which arose on earth seem to be unique to the universe, and to have brought out a unique divine response and initiative.
6. Did I detect a slight edge to the phrase God ‘can sit idly by’? How do you know that God sat idly by? I can’t remember who it was, but one Jew who went through Auschwitz and survived said that God was in the concentration camps; that God was there in the Torah - which spoke to every death, whether the perpretators heard it or not. It depends on what you are looking for and how you would expect God to act. Punishment and reward may not always be the immediate signs of God’s activity that it is helpful to look for and expect.
7. That Christians have often been a force for evil in the world. Yes, and the converse is also the case.
So why do I personally believe?
I agree with Augustine: “You have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they have found their rest in you.”
I find the biblical story, the person of Christ and the experiences of his followers today and throughout history overwhelmingly compelling, and do so whether I am in a position personally to experience the immediate benefits of the story on the level of my feelings and current experience or not. There are many areas of doubt and uncertainty, disappointment and frustration, but I do not find the source of these to reside in any shortcoming or inadequacy of God; rather I have come to see that truth remains truth whether I am the current and immediate beneficiary or not. In this, my own experiences seem to mirror many of the biblical personalities through whom the story is played out.
P.S.(Added later) I did include a narrative-theological perspective to some of these thoughts in an earlier version - mainly to prevent apoplectic splutterings about modern evangelicalism in Andrew’s capuccino coffee-cup, but it got a bit complicated - and I would have come to the same conclusions anyway - which are slightly different from Andrew’s.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Paul,
On the babble: like Peter, I find the differences - even conflicts - a gift to be celebrated. On the positive side it reminds us that the idea of the body of Christ is not something that can be confined to one group, culture or time. But it seems that this isn't what you're aiming at. If I get you right, this point is a near parallel to the point that christians have been a force for evil in the world.
I struggle with the same point. It is to me a real question how a movement which was supposedly started by the power of God's Spirit, has produced such terrors through time. I've been thinking about this for a few years, and am no closer now to an answer than before. I keep coming back to one of your last points: in the midst of all this horridness, there's this incredible beauty. And that beauty is powerful enough to keep me hanging on, even when I think I've got every reason to jettison any form of faith.
It does seem though, that the texts of the NT, while offering a way of betterment, don't make magical promises. The various tensions that I see operating in letters such as Galatians, Colossians, Philippians, Corinthians (big exclamation marks there), Hebrews, the pastorals, and of course the narrative history of Acts, tells me that while we may learn and grow in the way of Jesus, that it is no panacea or way to make bad things disappear. Like Ladd's now/not yet paradigm, the kingdom of God is something that's part here now, but not totally yet.
My own difficulty with this lies in what I also sometimes see as the absence/silence of God. Peter's point about God's presence in Auschwitz touches this is some ways. But this, in my understanding of the message of the NT, is where Ladd's now/not yet comes back in. Part of the not yet is the fullness of God in human history. This seem too to be one of the main points in Hebrews.
Danutz
Thanks for your reply. While I agree that we can separate the ethical ideals of Jesus from the world view of his time (and I'm really tempted to just that at times), I find that the views of Jesus grew out of his view of God (and history). To totally disassociate with that is to cut essential parts away.
But you can do that. You do end up with an ethic about which I think you rightly question why it should be considered better than any number of other ideologies. I agree with Andrew, however, that at that point we no longer have anything that can be called Christian. You admit as much as that by stating that you want to disassociate the message of Jesus from the interpretations which grew up around him afterward. Part of that cycle of interpretation is the NT itself.
I'm not really conversant with Borg or Crossand (read some articles by both), so I find it difficult to say anything about that. I'd be interested in any books you might recommend as starting points for their thought. What has concerned me in what I've read is the degree of confidence with which they separate various pericopes from Jesus' own life. This is an old argument, but there are assumptions made by them about what can happen to a text (just as there are in any approach), and some of these assumptions bother me. To me it is not a question of liberal or not, but rather a question of the origin of the texts: was the community that followed Jesus acting coherently in line with the thought and life of Jesus himself? If they reinterpreted, did they do it in a manner that was consistent within that worldview? (not assuming that we have to adopt that world view). Borg and Crossan both seem to look more for places to divide Jesus from his society and the community that claimed to follow him, rather than to see if there is a cohesiveness. The cohesiveness, as offered by folk like NT Wright (genuflect and bow your knees, please!) is not comfortable, but it rings more like history to me. But this is moving far away from the jump off point of this thread, so I'd better stop here.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Russ,
I'm not sure it is fair to state that you are NOT familar with someone's work then make the statement:
"Borg and Crossan both seem to look more for places to divide Jesus from his society and the community that claimed to follow him, rather than to see if there is a cohesiveness"
If you do bother to investigate their work further you will see that nothing could be more wrong. Even their worst critics would not really criticize them for that. It is 180 degrees off the target. Their chief goal is to envelop themselves in the society, community, and the culture of those that followed Jesus in order to get the full meaning of those texts. I've never met 2 men that are as serious about that task. I think NT Wright makes great points and has done a great deal to move modern evangelicalism forward, but in my view, his goal is skewed by his desire to impose an artificial layer of narrative on top of the individual stories that is present only as an illusion created by our modern minds. I prefer the Borg and Crossan approach which objectively looks at the stories themselves and the communities that created those individual stories.
Maybe the most simple place to start if you are interested is their most approachable book which is "The Last Week". Also, if you come from a Christian backgroud you may find Borg's work more approachable than Crossan. Crossan can be a bit more blunt.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Particularity
My take on the ‘scandal’, which I’ve had for so long I forget what led me to it, is that it’s helpful to separate the doctrine from the role it has been given via christendom, i.e. “Christianity is true, other religions are not” (caricature).
I can see no hint in Jesus’ statement that he is making a statement of what we would call comparative religion. The scandal (i.e. the deliberately contentious nature of what he is saying) is aimed squarely at the people of God, at Israel and stands alongside the meaning of his prophecies to the temple.
I think Wright, somewhere, has this as part of his ‘critique from within’ in his discussion of Jesus’ identity and consciousness of mission.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
My main problem with Danutz’s argument is that it celebrates attempts at a gospel expression that is dissociated from a “premodern” worldview while simultaneously advocating for an implicit association with a modern one. De-particularization is not an adequate correction when accompanied by a simultaneous move of re-particularization. (Strikingly, jazzact’s approach makes a similar and relatedly fatal error in that the theological approach he advocates simply fails to acknowledge that it has been shaped profoundly by [a negative reaction to] modernity and, instead, passes itself off as profoundly ‘orthodox’ and, therefore, more ancient than it really is.)
Andrew’s literary approach, I think, at least has going for it an explicit divorcing from a Western-only worldview. Liberal theology—and I’ve studied with some of the best (Gary Dorrien)—has a fatal core flaw in that it still carries the fruit, if not the seeds and spirit, of Western colonialism (via modernity’s secularization program). Andrew’s approach does not and has the potential of building on and towards a truly global gospel.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Makaden,
Am I correct to assume you feel a person must accept a pre-modern worldview in order to be Christian?
If that is not the case, then I don’t know how to understand your statement. I go out of my way to first understand the gospel within a pre-modern worldview but then allow it’s core truths to live on after that worldview has ended by seeking to understand that worldview and factoring in how it has flavored the message. The gospel may have been first told within that worldview but the gospel is not simply a mandate to return to that worldview.
As for western colonialism, I view it as another of the many forms of Imperialism that has infested humanity. I see the core pupose of the kingdom of God as being a movement to rid the world of those values. It really doesn’t matter if the values are materialized in Egyption slave labor, Persion or Greek conquest, corruption of the Jewish temple elites, Roman Imperialism, or British and now American colonialism.
Your criticisms of “liberalism” seem to be shallow and aimed at a completely fabricated straw man which doesn’t exist. Liberal theology is the most sincere attempts to recover an authentic faith in the message of Jesus using every ounce of information at our disposal. Everything else seems to be the result of the unwillingness to embrace some aspect of the knowledge we have available which inevitably leads to a less informed decision based on personal opinion or biases handed down through tradition. Why not allow all the possibilies to shape our decisions? Why not make the best decisions we can make using all the information we have?
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
“Am I correct to assume you feel a person must accept a pre-modern worldview in order to be Christian?”
No sir, that would not be correct. However, the difference between you and I is twofold:
1. I do not assume—quite arrogantly, actually—that the pre-modern worldview has past. With the sweeping statement “but then allow it’s core truths to live on after that [premodern] worldview has past” you have dismissed the religion of many of our 2/3 world brothers and sisters which still operate in a very similar worldview (not to mention many who still cling to aspects of it in western countries!). This is why I accused you of colonialism.
2. While I agree with you that the gospel is not necessarily tied to any worldview, I do not, with you, have an operating assumption that by stripping the old worldview of its metaphysical claims thereby remaking it in a modern worldview I have “arrived,” or “recovered an authentic faith in the message of Jesus”. This is what I was describing as “re-particularization”.
By suggesting that I have created a straw man it seems to me that this is a priori evidence that you have not taken the critical gaze to your own tradition. Had you done so you would have realized that the attempts of liberal theology from Schleiermacher to the infantile theological attempts of Thomas Jefferson, to William James, Henry Nelson Wieman, Edgar Brightman, Douglas Macintosh, the rest of the Chicago School, etc., has been to “make Christianity acceptable to the modern mind” by doing what you are doing: a rejecting of the old and a re-particularization into a modern, empiricist and materialist mindset.
You simultaneously hammer people like Andrew for accepting what you feel are premodern assumptions as central to the gospel while then uncritically baptizing your own particularization as the more preferred. I don’t care how “sincere” it is—the fundamentalism that arose in reaction to the Chicago School and liberal theology was sincere as well. The problem in both is the hypocrisy: assuming that one is standing from an Archimedean point (scientific mindset or direct revelation) from which one can extend the finger of condemnation to others.
There is no Archimedean point. You can’t make universal claims or judgments without a tautological self-referencing to the worldview that underlies them for justification. No one has baptized modernity, just as no one has baptized premodernity.
Andrew openly assumes a (narrative) position that has the possibility of extending through multiple worldviews and epochs, though none of them will be completely dominant (I think we might have to tinker with that a bit more, Andrew) and, therefore, none will be thoroughly satisfied. Andrew incorporates the historical critical method often. That’s modern. But he also emphasizes the narrative. That’s to some extent premodern (not to be confused with historical time; premodern in the sense of “not modern” or “not Western”). It’s going to have to be that way. Sorry.
Also, Andrew’s position is still rational. Highly rational, actually. Rationality/irrationality has nothing to do with this argument, I hope we can recognize up front.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Danutz,
Point taken on my comment on Borg and Crossan. I think your point about narrative (NT Wright) versus individual stories (Borg and Crossan, if I read you rightly) is exactly right. It's this which I have picked up from the bits that I've read from both men (and from Wright and others), and basically what I was aiming at in my comment. A major question is, of course, how one defines artificial. The criteria for determining communities, as well as the criteria for assuming an interlocking narrative, can be equally subjective.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Meanwhile, Paul seems to have slipped quietly out of the building.
Here’s a snippet from a longer comment I had prepared for in response to Andrew’s earlier in the thread - to do with Philippians 2:5-11, which Paul had raised as an example of the ‘weakness’ of God, and which Andrew uses to draw out Paul’s presentation of Jesus as opposing the Caesar cult:
On the one hand, undoubtedly, Jesus is presented as the polar opposite of Caesar, overcoming Caesar and all the powers that Caesar represented by being and doing that which was the antithesis to Caesar. On the other hand, there is in the passage the undeniable challenge to Judaism: that Jesus was himself Lord, the very title by which YHWH himself had come to be publicly known, and in his vindication through his resurrection and ascension Jesus was attested as God to be worshipped. The very passage is a hymn of worship to Jesus as Lord. In its echoes of Isaiah 45-55, and repetition of Isaiah 45:23 in particular, Paul does the impossible, the inconceivable, the unthinkable – and takes the strongest affirmation, in the passage from Isaiah, of Judaistic monotheism, and applies it, in the Philippians passage, to Jesus himself. In talking about Jesus, Paul is talking about God – and adjuring worship of him as God.
This doesn’t really move any aspect of the debate forwards: I just felt like throwing it in.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
It does take us back in the direction of the original intent of the thread, and with the hope that Paul will come back into the building to further the point of the divine/human aspects of Jesus. If for Paul this step was "unthinkable", how must it be for we, who are even farther away from the narrative that lies behind Paul's attributing divinity to Jesus. Or is the point rather that it was just as unthinkable for them as it might be for us?
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Christian particularity and God's inactivity
I agree that Christianity would be self deluding and wishful thinking if it rested on a set of propositions (sacred texts, if you like) and personal experience alone. But it moves from the realm of subjective experience to objective history (to use terms which, I realise, are in themselves open to interpretation - so I’m only using them as signposts) in its historical grounding. Nowhere is this more evident, and significant, than in the resurrection of Christ - which of course, obtains fuller meaning within the context of the history of Israel. The historicity of the resurrection (and Jesus himself) has been the battlefield of scholarship over the last 200 years - but despite its detractors, it continues to re-emerge from the trash can of debunked belief. Rightly so, because everything that Christianity rests upon, including subjective experience, rests upon the factual basis of the resurrection. Of course there is particularism here, since the resurrection of Christ is saying and doing something which no other religion has said or done.
Concerning God’s (non) intervention in suffering, isn’t there a non sequitur in the sentence: “If you had had the power to stop what was happening at Auschwitz and did not do so, you would be reviled for your callousness and indifference to human suffering.”?
Having the power to act in the face of suffering yet failing to do so does not necessarily imply callousness and indifference on the part of the one who failed to act. But there may be further possibilities: why should we necessarily assume that God did have the power to intervene and act? Or further: what if God did intervene - but not in the way we expected? The quote from the unnamed Jew about the Torah is at least one perspective on the suffering of the concentration camps. Further, what if God, by failing to act in the way we would have expected and wanted, was deliberately making himself as powerless in the face of evil as those who suffered? How do we know that God, in so doing, was not suffering as much, if not more, than those who suffered - by taking on himself not simply individual suffering, but the entire accumulated weight of all those who suffered? How do we know that this was not, in fact, God’s way of exhausting the power of evil? And why is it that the death of Jesus on the cross comes to mind when I think of this?
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Fred Peatross
Anathema! hehe
It humours me to see so many immediately become defensive to your thoughts and then attempt to become an apologetic for God. Paul, you did your job—you made people think. That's what a good teacher does. This is a superb post. I quoted and gave credit to it on my blog […link]
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Auschwitz and the God of the Gaps
Paul, I doubt that any honest follower wouldn’t sympathise with your questions. And my little response earlier wasn’t meant to be dismissive of the issue of particularisation.
So, it is in sympathy with your questions that I ask another one. Auschwitz stands in a couple of threads, for you and for most of us, as an example of impossible theodicy. My question is this.
When? At what point and in what way should God intervene here? The holocaust, obviously, is the eruption of a poison that had long been in the system of Germany, and perhaps of the West generally.
So, how does God intervene in the apparatus of the camps? Or did he have his intervention refused by the Catholic church in the Concordat of 1933? One commentator (and no friend of Christianity) Gregory S. Paul, is surely not far from the mark when he describes that treaty like this, “It bound all devout German Catholics to the (Nazi) state - the clergy through an oath and income, the laity through the authority of the church.” At least to this extent the voice of Christian protest was silenced, by the church itself, for religious purposes.
Or did God not intervene in opposition to the rise of anti-Semitic thinking in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries (Eisenmenger, through Jakob Friedrich Fries, to the rantings of Julius Streicher in Der Stuermer)? Or perhaps earlier, in medieval anti-Semitism, which many trace through the inquisition and out to Luther himself? Protestantism is surely not immune.
But what brought such poison to the point of eruption, where such demonic prejudices should be outworked in even more demonic policies? The idea of a ‘final solution’ to the presence of Jews in Germany is not a Nazi invention.
There was a study of more than fifty anti-Semitic writers between 1861 and 1895 (Klemens) which found that twenty eight proposed ‘solutions’ to the ‘Jewish Problem’, nineteen of these called for the physical extermination of the Jews.
The crisis in Germany with the collapse of the Weimar Republic clearly arises in tandem with the Versailles Treaty and its shaming of the German nation, let alone in its demand for restitution to the tune of, in its original form and in today’s terms, about half a trillion dollars payment for causing the war. In other words, there were also injustices in that other ‘solution’ - to the First World War, that inflamed the situation and left the door open for an opportunist like Hitler. The German psyche was ready for revolution and all the extremes that would produce.
My point is not to excuse anything, it is not even to explain it, it is to ask what we expect of intervention by God in crisis where we have refused his ways in process? And I don’t have the answer to that one; even though it is a question I have had to face personally.
The related thread http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/1253 on power has to be relevant to this expectation. Part of the difficulty, to my mind, is that the doctrine that ‘God is in control’ is not one that is easy to define, in spite of its numerous proof texts, from scripture. It seems to me that a good proportion of scripture is wrestling with precisely the sense of the absence of God that you describe so well.
Perhaps we have been going about this in the wrong way. While it might be regrettable that some Christians have, for many reasons and in many ways, ended up with a theology that has a “God of the Gaps” that conflicts with our instinct for the God who is All in All, it is not hard to understand how they got there. While it does not answer the question, although it relates very much to the discussion of the Philippians passage on that other thread, there is something about the equation of power with control that is deeply inadequate. It’s perfectly possible, as in fact I do, to see the story of the refusal of control in Philippians foreshadowed in the Genesis account of the trees. Although it came up on yet another thread under the guise of deconstruction, this narrative does seem to support the notion that even in the creation account God abjures control and yields the future to his image bearer. So perhaps the problem, in terms of social theodicy (if there is such a thing) is not the God of the Gaps but the believers of the gaps.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: God's intervention refused?
Had a post going but lost it. Basically, I would argue (though arguments can never blunt the emotional sharpness of gratuitous pain) that if Christianity means looking at Jesus and saying 'God', then we must look at Jesus weeping over Jerusalem's fate for being unrepentant and say that this, in a very real way, reveals (or at least is analogous to) God's relationship to the world. It reveals that God's will can be thwarted.
That's the biblical insight. Philosophically, I think there are a number of ways of working this out. I'd simply say that God has structured the world in such a way that his agency is severely restricted (at least within some parameters)—as he prefers to work through his people.
Also, I think there's something to the traditional philosophical distinction (which some theologians, like Gregory Boyd, deny) of 'natural evil' and 'moral evil'. The point is that stubbing one's toe (or more drastically, slipping and breaking one's neck in the shower) isn't really 'evil'… it just sucks. It's an unfortunate though necessary possibility given the structure of reality. It's a tragedy—but not necessarily evil, in contrast to something like the holocaust, or the mass rape of Sudanese women in Darfur (which almost makes me want to believe in penal substitutionary atonement).
I don't know if this helps. But these are very important questions. Thanks for raising them Paul.
Cheers,
-Daniel-
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Paul, I have a premonition that this is not going to be a small post, please bear with me.
First a little clarification, “in which case it is unreasonable to blame God for his non intervention”
Not quite, what I am suggesting is that in view of the process and the accumulation of human behaviours the questions of theodicy, of God’s responsibility, should not necessarily be seen as indicated only in crisis.
In other words the issue is not made extreme because of the extremity of the events. I don’t think the problem goes away because of this but it does gain some contextual qualification. Remember I have only responded on the issue of ‘social’ theodicy, on the situations where human beings, becoming more sub-human in a period of history, outwork their sub-humanity in appalling ways upon other humans.
I think the commonest problem with doing theodicy in the context of theology is ensuring that we work within appropriate categories. Auschwitz can also be seen, tragically, as a ghastly example of ‘the wages of sin is death’ or of ‘sin, full grown, leads to death’.
Culpability in other contexts needs other criteria of understanding. The two boys who died in the car - should adults not have foreseen the danger and taught the boys? Should the car’s designers not have been aware and ensured that an internal boot release was fitted. Perhaps they had, at some stage, and the manufacturers had withdrawn the specification for reasons of cost; seeing it as unwarranted in terms of risk-management. Who knows? More relevant for discussion of theodicy would be in what way and for what reasons do we expect there to be no accidents of behaviour or no bad consequences to ordinary actions (the design of cars, for example)?
But I come back to the question of categories, is culpability an appropriate way of coming at these issues?
Like all of us, Paul, I am a child of the twentieth century. As such, like you, I see the logic that if God is all-powerful and all-knowing, and if power is the same as control so that God has all control, then God also and by definition has all responsibility. Case closed, let’s go off and cry together in the corner, or let us rage together and shake our fist, bring down this outrage and call for God to be accountable to we who suffer his absence. Then let us demand that he take his place in our day of judgement. Then let us exact recompense. Then let us find that in our execution of it we have also executed the one who ‘upholds all things by the word of his power’.
The point of the caricature is simply this. If we are seriously going to fight for understanding, the struggle cannot be framed in forms of thinking that lead to the ultimate farce.
In sympathy with your original questions again I would extend them, hoping to make things better not worse. I feel these questions as deeply as anyone, but I also have to hold them in the context of other questions about the nature and the place of scripture and hold all these questions under the bigger question about the meaning of the word God.
In this journey I have not found the apparent contrasts between first and second Testaments to be very useful. Step an inch to the side the OT narratives and all the problems of theodicy come back. So, God, through Joseph saves the Egypt from a famine that swept across the middle East, what of the tribes and even nations who did not have access to the prophecy, and starved?
There are stories of intervention where God acts within the constraints of purpose, to further God’s project with God’s people, the stories of the entry into the promised land and subsequent conflicts would be a case in point, and produce some shocking stories of violent intervention, and some fascinating stories of interventions that miraculously involve less violence than anyone would expect. But there were natural disasters, local tragedies, personal pain that continued all through the period and across the world where we have no stories of intervention or a lack of it.
The problem between the Old and New Testament images of God only exists conceptually within the confines of Biblical narrative. Adjacent to the biblical narrative the problems have always existed, and remain.
Let me make a very tentative offering upon the altar of “who-screwed-up?”. (And this is where I will try to do what you asked me to do at the end of your previous post – yup, that’s right, I had not forgotten!)
One of the common fundamentals in this sort of ethical enquiry, and common to most debates on theodicy, is that theodicy is the problem of the victim (in most secular and some religious thought) or the culprit (in some religious thought). I am wondering if there is not a way of doing theodicy without victim-hood or culpability, seeing as neither of these has yielded good results so far.
In Genesis 1-3 we have a story that tells us that the genesis of everything is a God whose very mode of being is creative (that’s such an inadequate way of putting it, it is almost ugly, I will try to improve on it another time). We see a process so astonishing in its beauty, so coherent in its design, so elegant in its process and harmonious in its outcome that even the God who enacts it stands back and exclaims its perfection. It is as if God is surprised at what he has done. Eden stands as the expression of divine perfection, the dream of God come true, and somewhere within us remain the echoes of its song, the sense of its loveliness, the eternity of its living, breathing wonder. And we lament the daily betrayal of that memory, in Auschwitz, in Tehran, in Indonesia, in our own impoverished ways of being human. But here is the conundrum. (My apologies to any who have endured my eulogies on this point elsewhere, but I still don’t find this theme exhausted, or even tired)
The very first thing that this astonishing God does in that perfect setting is to sow the seed of its potential destruction. He planted, or chose, two trees, symbolic of alternative possibilities, of an open history, of a story not yet told. God created the possibility of failure where it did not exist before. And it is in the context of that garden, and in the shade of those trees, that God tells his Adam to rule, to work and to civilise the earth.
There have been times, when hearing the accusation that it is the Judeo/Christian ethic in Genesis that has released the pillage of the environment we see today, that I have wanted to soften the Hebrew ‘radah’ translated ‘rule’ to something that has more of the popular stewardship in it. Thirty-four biblical examples of translation, however, make this difficult to do. It is a tough word and it does, in context, carry more than a hint of a deep transfer of responsibility, not in the event of Adam’s creation but in the intent of it, especially in the syntax of ‘let us make… in order to’.
I do believe the mode of rule is stewardship, but not in the sense that it removes executive responsibility, and this for theological rather than exegetical reasons. In a review of Middleton’s 2005 book ‘The Liberating Image’ I found this comment, “The syntax… points to ‘rule’ as the purpose, not simply the consequence or result, of the imago Dei” ( p. 53). Such an understanding opens a way to see the human creature as the one delegated by God to take over the task of mediating and representing the divine presence on earth and, for that matter, continuing the work of creation and rule even after God retires from the action on the open-ended and unfinished seventh day (p. 291).” I have ordered the book and look forward to exploring its implications.
So, if we take this charge seriously, and realise that there is a delegation in Genesis that affects every manifestation of the human presence on earth, how might this contribute to our experience of a hostile reality?
The loss of harmony is directly represented in Gen3, the toil, strife, labour and pain are all indicated strongly. They are also, I think, in some way as ‘curses’ also represented as the effects of the drama that has just played out. So the curses are also, tragically, almost promises of the absence of God, or something very much like it. In other words there is a fundamentally relational aspect to the drama, the creation is glorious as God’s dream come true, with Adam where they should be. But later, with God not where he should be, as a consequence of the risk taken with Adam, the whole of creation is not as it should be. (A theme so fundamental to scripture).
But if Middleton is right, and if am making any sense at all, how does this affect theodicy?
In the theodicy done by the victims we have to see Auschwitz as a terminal tragedy and, possibly, an indictment of the God who we expected to be in control. With this model, however, something changes. Auschwitz is not the end of a story but an episode in a more epic narrative. The lessons we as God’s image bearers refused to learn in the decades or centuries that led to the camps have not gone away. God still speaks to us of those things. The agonies of the camps can either slip dimly into the shadows of our repeated forgetfulness, or we can be reminded, when we look suspiciously at Arab nations today in fear of terrorism, that recent wars are being prosecuted with the same sort of racial stereotyping. As they were in Vietnam, as they were in Korea.
And don’t let us forget that the Jews were not the only, or the first, to feel the impact of that particular boot. The gypsies were an earlier target, and in many communities remain so. Homosexuals were victims too, as were those with learning disabilities or mental health problems.
Is this a wild and whimsical notion, then? That the problem of evil might remain as it is because the purpose of our creation as God’s image bearers has been neglected? That would be, to say the least, rather ironic. But if it is an irony, what is it that St Paul means when he says that creation is subject to futility in its agonised wait for the (implied) delayed revelation of the sons of God?
What I am trying to get at, increasingly clumsily, is what happens to theodicy when we approach it as an unfinished issue of mission, and mission done in the light of, as Middleton put it, the Liberating Image?
I don’t know what it would take to stop a tsunami, but if the tragedies go together in the way that common theodicy makes them go together, perhaps the answers go together too.
Chris
PS I'm not really able to respond on Weil. I struggled thirty years ago with, and have since neglected that particular genius. I recall it as being like chewing cast-iron candy-floss!
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
paul
i too find that these 7 things make it hard for me to believe in traditional christianity. and while many other’s comments have attempted to answer questions and waylay concerns, even scripture or personal experience does not seem to fully relieve the strain of those seven things. in the end i find that i too rest in your two statements of belief.
and i think that no one else can really believe much more. not honestly. much more religion can be built upon it, surely, but what else is there to believe and the very base?
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: On explaining God's inaction
Just a quick clarification, Paul.
A traditional biblical explanation of the horrible things that happen is that they are God’s punishment for disobedience or sin. This has an echo in your post (Auschwitz can also be seen, tragically, as a ghastly example of ‘the wages of sin is death’ or of ‘sin, full grown, leads to death’)
I know this has been a common response, and still is in many places, but it has nothing to do with my point. What I am getting at is the direction, even in those two quoted passages, where sin itself heads, not in terms of a punishment or judgement, but in terms of its own internal destiny or consequence. I hope the echo you describe isn't there, I didn't mean it to be; if it were I would never have used those two verses in this context.
You find it easier to relate the ideas I raised to 'earth' issues rather than social or political ones. I admit I don't find the latter a problem at all, especially if we take the purpose of the Adam, as Middleton describes it perhaps, as being to form society and to civilise the world, continuing the six days of creation, while God 'rests' and works with us, into the socialised forms about which God is so active in the remainder of the biblical narrative. In fact I find it easier to see how acting out our 'rule' could have prevented any of the Auschwitz type horrors than to see us solving the issues of the exploitation of the earth's resources.
I share your difficulties with the 'bellicose and vengeful' stories and indeed with all the texts of terror, whether lamented by Trible or not. This is what I meant when I said that theodicy for me sits within questions about the nature and role of scripture. There is in both cases a profound impossibility, how can God's image bearer, in our struggle for understanding and especially in ethical understanding come to the place where we are morally offended by our God! How can the God who requires us not to kill demand that we kill? These are the sorts of apparently very simple issues which I hope that the narrative approaches to interpretation might help us resolve.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
To Paul,
I have thought about the points you’ve made here and have my own take on them. My own problems with “traditional christianity” began when I tried to think about what happened to those people who never had a chance to hear the story about Jesus who was supposed to save them. There was also, seemingly, a problem for those people who were told said story by not-so-great sources, their slave-holders, conquerers, murderers and thieves, and so forth. The message seemed to be corrupted by the messenger.
You started out saying there were seven or so many reasons you found it difficult to believe in “traditional christianity.” But, too, at the end, you said there were also reasons that made it possible for you to forget all of the difficulties.
I have found it impossible to sweep under the rug the problems I’ve found with the traditional story.
In thinking about the problems and your solutions, I’ve had to come up with some account of exactly how to understand “traditional christianity.” I’ve thought I’ve needed to have some understanding in order to know what I was accepting or rejecting.
The one I’ve come up with is, admittedly, peculiar. I haven’t heard anyone put it exactly as I want to. But, despite it’s peculiarity, I think it explains the problems you’ve brought up in your list of seven.
Briefly, the traditional understanding of Jesus is what you get if you take seriously the business in Plato’s Republic, where Socrates says our lives are like the lives of his cave dweller’s, and you take Jesus to be the guy who comes into the cave having understood the problems the cave dweller’s have with their lives being illususory.
Given this way of understanding Jesus, the seven points can be explained.
So, point one is about the problem we have trying to understand how a person can be both a human being and divine at the same time. You said the idea is so mind-wrenching, it’s almost nonsense. The distinction between the cave dwellers and those on the outside of the cave is significant and huge. The cave dweller’s lives are based on the experience of false information, in that they only see shadows of real things, for example. Whoever is outside the cave not only understands how the objects in front of the fires make the shadows, but it is suggested they are in a position to have set up the cave and chained up the people in the first place.
I suggest this is the basis for the way traditional christians understand the distinction between mortals and God. As such, no wonder there would be a problem understanding just how one could be someone who knew the truth of everything, and was powerful enough to have created our lives, as such, and yet, at some point also exist in the same way that we do, putting their pants on one leg at a time, so to speak.
The second point is explained by the fact the the fires that cast the shadows of our existence are behind us where we cannot see them, and standing beside them is God. God is absent in the world only to the extent that we do not understand the exact way in which our experience is put together for us.
There are other ways of putting the Allegory, one of them being the way the parable of the absent landlord talks about sending his son as a messenger.
The conflicting claims about Christianity can be explained simply as what naturally happens when people find things to question when they find certain ideas or commitments being pressed on them. The spread of Socratic philosophy, I believe, does not come without cost.
The cave dweller’s problem, according to Socrates, is that they have only opinions and prejudices, and never knowledge or values as their lives are about illusion. The guy who comes into the cave is in a position to save the cave dweller’s because he has knowledge and values. The importance of what he has is shown by the fact that if one wants to finds one’s way home, for example, one will be saved from starvation or the elements by knowing the way home, and not if one relies on rumors or false information.
I take it the traditional christians believed that whereas the Buddhists, Moslems, Hindus, and so forth, were not relying on the knowledge and values that Jesus provided, they were then relying on the false information they were getting from the shadows and echoes of existence. Yes, I would say it’s something like cultural hubris, but it’s also the same thing when they would go to anyone saying they were unable to find their way about unless they believed in their “traditional christianity.”
Number five becomes a problem because part of the Allegory’s story is about this guy who comes back into the cave. In order to make the story have greater credibility, you would expect there to be some guy who you could say brought messages from God, and himself would be divine like God. The Jewish Messianic environment provided a great place to develop such a story.
For six, one of the inducements given to believe in the Allegory, I suspect, in addition to providing for philosophers a way to understand how knowledge and morality would be possible, would be that it also told people that if it were true, there would be a powerful being who was interested in them and who could give them another life after this one. And, if so inclined, that God would intervene in the lives of one’s loved ones. He might help them out. He provided an argument for it based on it’s having really good consequences.
We are told God can do these things but not that he will always make things better than they otherwise might. This, is an argument to persuade us to adopt the Socratic way of looking at reality. But, it also doesn’t promise that he will prevent every stubbed toe or holocaust.
And, then you ask why Christians have been too often a force for evil in the world. Some people, I suspect, will say that it has never been the Christianity that has made the evil in the world, that people always forget about the Christianity when they decide to murder and steal things.
I’m persuaded that something about “traditional christianity” is corrupt. It isn’t a teflon religion at all. People who believe in “traditional christianity” - understood as an implication of the Socratic Allegory - are like those people who have built their house on sand. That is, it is more important to them that they consider the consequences of the Socratic account of reality, that, for example, it explains what we’re talking about when we say “Jesus saves,” or God is absent, or Jesus is both man and God, than for them to pay attention to the basis of what they believe in the Socratic Allegory.
My point here is that people who build their homes on sand understand Jesus quite differently than people who build their homes on some other basis like rock. The basis of the Allegory is that Socrates claims that in order to survive in this violent world we have to be thugs, relying on violence, sneakiness, and lies, and if we don’t do the dirty work ourselves, we shouldn’t interfere with those who will. When people are so committed to being saved be Jesus, understood as the guy who brings us knowledge and morality, they will resist questioning the commitments they must make to thuggery that makes such salvation necessary.
I can understand that people want to believe the story of “traditional christianity” because it involves “beauty and power.”
However, my point is that any mansion built on sand having all kinds of beauty and power is still built on a fragile and in this case corrupt foundation.
I don’t think one should hope that it’s true.
(I’m sorry for taking so much space.)
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Paul,
I appreciate your characterization of the position you think I’m in. Yes, I can try to understand your position and respond to it, but you don’t have to accept what I say at all.
This leaves me with the question whether you were serious about your having doubts about “traditional Christianity.” Maybe you do, and you tried to explain what they were.
I thought perhaps you were serious, and tried to understand the nature and implications of your doubts.
You said whatever I said about that may or may not be true. Well, what about that? Do you think that Christianity depends on our agreeing with Socrates that our lives are like the cave dwellers?
Yes, you can take it or leave it, but that is the issue as I see it.
Or maybe, you didn’t understand my argument. Was there some part of it that’s not clear? What would that be?
The main work of my argument was to show why, unlike you, I cannot accept “traditional Christianity” despite its “beauty and power.” I explained why it should not be “hoped for.”
I appreciated your work in giving the reasons why you found it difficult to accept “traditional Christianity.” I explained why I could not in the end just accept it.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Paul,
Sorry, I guess the frustration of Christians is that they go on and on about the “beauty and power” of their views and all they get back is, “well, it might not be true.”
I also remembered that there are bizzilions of blogs and writers on this very topic.
So, I’m less miffed. Like you, perhaps, I am puzzled by the thoughts about your seven.
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Paul,
I’m both new and late to this discussion thread but identify with your concerns/doubts regarding traditional Christianity even though I consider myself to be a Christian. Let me just begin by saying I believe that just because the majority of current Christians ascribe to “traditional Christian” theology, we must not assume this particularity to be God’s sole and absolute truth.
I am reminded of Isaiah 29:13, “These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.”
If the Jews (God’s "chosen" people) could have gotten it so wrong that God had to pay mankind a visit in the flesh, I submit Christianity could and has likewise gone down wrong paths as well – e.g. the Crusades, Inquisition, slavery, etc. This presents the distinct possibility that traditional Christianity may not have it quite right today.
I believe traditional Christianity as passed down from the takeover of the faith by the Roman church is based upon a couple of flawed premises which have resulted in a doctrine that is both intuitively and intellectually difficult to totally accept due to its conflict with the image of God within each of us. However, I believe the Reformation was the beginning of a journey to get back in touch with the true purpose of God and message of Jesus.
This journey will be a long one and is significantly impeded by the traditional Christian view of the Bible as the complete and inerrant word of God. While I revere the Bible and believe much of it to be both historically true and inspired by God, I believe the incontestable contradictions in both the character of God and various Biblical accounts force us to reexamine the nature and role of the Bible in man’s evolutionary understanding of God and God’s purpose.
I believe it is more helpful to view the Bible narrative and saga of the Jews, Jesus Christ and the early Christians as describing the starting point for God’s working out of his ultimate will for his creation. The Reformation advanced this movement but I believe Christianity, as your 7 points indicate, is a journey to a destination still as yet far removed from our current human condition.
I believe viewing the Bible as the evolutionary account of early historical man’s struggle to comprehend God, God’s will and the meaning of life through the cultural lens of his superstitious times is more helpful than viewing it as God’s sole and complete communication with man regarding his will and plan for salvation. After all, what is the purpose of the Holy Spirit if not to guide us in our quest to understand God’s purpose and will? And if we give the Bible equal authority with the Holy Spirit, do we not make the Bible an idol?
Given this understanding of the Bible, I have come to the view that all scripture must be weighed as to its truthfulness by determining whether or not it is in accord with what we believe about the nature and moral character of God. I realize this presents somewhat of a referential loop between what the Bible says about God’s nature and character and what the Holy Spirit is telling us. However, I believe this is the essence of faith … to trust what the Holy Spirit is telling us over scriptures that were written by imperfect men who I believe were, like us, struggling to comprehend God’s purpose and will.
In the Bible authors’ case, they were struggling with understanding a monotheistic deity in the midst of a superstitious, polytheistic culture of capricious, vindictive gods. It’s not hard to see how some of these attributes may have transplanted themselves into the OT, and even NT, scriptures.
This view then opens the door for us to better understand the confounding scriptures in which God allegedly commands Joshua to kill innocent women and children (Joshua 10:40), or in which God himself allegedly strikes down an innocent Uzzah for the seemingly well-intentioned act of trying to keep the ark of God from falling onto the ground after the donkey upset its cart (2 Samuel 6:5-7). This clearly is not the loving, merciful and forgiving God who commands us to have mercy toward and forgive our enemies as testified in the life and ministry of Jesus Christ.
With this view of God and the Bible, let me now respond to your questions/concerns.
Here are 7 things that make it hard for me to believe in traditional Christianity.
1. How can Christ be both God and man - the idea teeters on the edge of nonsense.
If you believe in an omnipotent, transcendent God why would it not be possible for him to become flesh in the form of Jesus? I admit our modern, rational mind rebels against this notion. But, if we believe in an all powerful God that created the universe, we must admit that it could be possible. (I’m not saying I believe the creation story to be literally true but I do believe the universe to be created even if evolution may have been the instrument used by God in doing so.)
To me the strongest evidence that this might be the case is the dramatic change in the behavior of Jesus’ disciples following his alleged resurrection. How a group of men who previously were dull to Jesus’ teachings could so radically transform themselves and risk persecution and death for the sake of a logically preposterous message/event is nothing short of miraculous … or insane. I believe the fact that all of them did this shifts the verdict, in my opinion, toward a miracle as opposed to insanity. However, I also believe this too to be purely an article of faith.
2. Why is God so absent?
Is God absent … or does he simply choose to allow his will to be worked out through mankind and his creation? Your notion of God’s absence is tied to the existence of injustice and tragedy in this life. I too mourn and abhor the evil that exists in this world. However, I believe this is inherently tied back to the deep mystery of God’s purpose for his creation.
Though none of us will ever know the mysteries of God in this life, I have come to the view that God created man in his image so that we might commune with and worship (i.e. love) him. Why? Perhaps being God without man was a lonely existence, though that doesn’t sound very God-like. Or, perhaps he did it purely out of love and wanting to create beings that could experience and appreciate his love. I personally ascribe to this view. However, in either case none of it would have meant anything if man did not have the free will to reject God’s gift of love.
It is my view that it is man’s rejection of God’s love that is the genesis of evil and injustice in this life. However, if we believe there is an existence beyond this world, then perhaps what happens in this life isn’t the end of the story. And perhaps our horror at and repudiation of the evil inflicted by man is part of the mechanism by which all mankind will ultimately turn back toward God, his purpose to begin with. If this life is all that there is, then I would agree with your view of God’s apparent absence in the face of great evil. However, traditional Christianity and most other religions expressly believe in an existence after this life.
The real question I think boils down to our view of the traditional Christian doctrine of eternal punishment or destruction for those who do not profess Christ in this life. I will address this in your question 4 below.
3. The babble of voices - the myriad conflicting claims of Christianity.
Yes, Christianity is significantly divided with more than 38,000 worldwide denominations at last count. Most of these divisions arise from disagreements over what each group believes the Bible says and man’s seemingly irresistible urge to define God in our own image (it must be that pride thing). However, I believe there is a core truth underlying Christianity about God that is absent from many other religions … that God is a god of unconditional love, mercy, forgiveness and grace.
Though the breadth and inclusiveness of this view of God’s scandalous grace is restricted by much of traditional Christianity today, I believe the current state to be a temporary condition on the path of God’s working out his ultimate plan to redeem all of his creation solely through the power of his infinite and transforming love. I believe the view of God’s unlimited grace will ultimately prevail within Christianity and throughout the world, thus establishing the full reign of God’s kingdom on earth. However, this could take a very long time.
4. The (apparent) claim that we can only find God (salvation) through Jesus. This dismissal of the beliefs of Buddhists, Moslems, Hindus etc etc seems like massive cultural hubris - which found brutal expression during the period of European colonisation.
There is a growing movement (though small today) within Christianity (even some evangelical circles) that God is actively at work in the world in all people, which must by definition include all faiths. Christian Universalism theology is gaining significant momentum and is reestablishing the historicity and biblical warrant for the view that it has always been God’s plan and Jesus’ message that all men will ultimately be restored to the original perfection in which God made his creation. This will be done solely through the power of God’s unlimited transforming love as manifested in Christ. Clearly, it will not occur in this life for most people.
However, given an eternal existence beyond this one, is it too hard to believe that an all powerful and loving God will continue to work to redeem those he loves and created, and ultimately save them from the inevitable pain and suffering caused by our rejection of him? Or that his infinite and eternal love could not ultimately overcome our rejection of him? I think not, and there are numerous passages in the Bible that support this view, and many (perhaps most) early Christian fathers and believers (through the 4th century AD) embraced this view.
I have created an extensive collection of research in the form of a Powerpoint presentation in support of this view if you or anyone else has an interest.
5. The fact that our planet is an infinitesimally tiny speck in a universe of unimaginable vastness; and the claim that everything in the universe revolves around what happened in a small place on this earth during an eye-blink of time.
I agree with your view. I think this focus of traditional Christianity is a testimony to the pride and vanity of man, and the failure to truly grasp the cosmic, timeless and infinite nature of God. It is too hard to believe that what we profess to believe in the short life each of us has on this earth will determine our eternal destiny, particularly when most of mankind will never have been given the chance to hear what I believe to be the true message of Jesus Christ. In addition, if God is infinite and omnipotent, could he not also be evidencing his presence in other parts of the universe?
6. That (according to the scriptures) God can intervene on earth to punish and reward, and to pursue his own plans and projects, but can sit idly by while the Holocaust occurs.
See my answer to 2 above. However, to summarize, if God continues to work out his plan to redeem all men beyond this life then what happens here is not the end of the story or an eternally unanswered evil, even though it may be perceived as evil and unjust solely relative to this world by those temporarily left behind. To me, the Christian Universalist view of God’s plan for the ultimate restoration of all his creation is the only theology that adequately answers these most troubling questions about the meaning of life and the evil that exists in the world. Fortunately, it can be found throughout scripture and, I believe, is more in tune with the image and innate understanding of God that is within us.
7. The fact that Christians have so often been a force for evil in the world.
We must delineate between Christians who profess Christ but do not have him in their hearts, and a true Christian who understands and lives out Christ’s message of love, mercy, forgiveness and grace. In my humble opinion, relatively few Christians, or any people for that matter, have truly grasped the true significance of this message yet. And yes, I believe many “non-Christians” can be better “Christians” than many traditional Christians since it is a condition of our hearts, not our minds.
I am hopefully optimistic and believe we are making progress (e.g. civil rights, equal rights for women, increased tolerance, etc.). Though it will be a long road with many setbacks, some of them major (radical Islamic terrorism … and the war against it?).
Why then do I believe?
1. The beauty and power of the story.
Ditto.
2. The hope that it is true.
Ditto.
By grace,
TomH
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page
Re: Belief in traditional Christianity
Paul, a few thoughts in response:
"this line […] seems to do serious violence to the text in the sense that it makes the Bible a story about what man thinks about God rather than, as it purports to be, a story about God’s dealings with men."
Perhaps this is a false dichotomy. ‘What man thinks about God’ could be divinely inspired, and ‘a story about God’s dealings with men [and women]’ must be told through human words… there’s certainly more to be said there, but I think orthodox Christianity tries to the story being both initiated by God and recognized (and given expression) by humans, with all the ambiguities that that implies…
"How can God know everything and yet only know what a first century Jew knows?"
This is to ask a question which the biblical text wasn’t formulated to answer. We start with Jesus, who was a first century Jew, and, in light of his teachings, faithful life, death, and subsequent vindication by resurrection, we look at him and say ‘God’. We can work that out metaphysically by saying that whatever it means for Jesus to be YHWH enfleshed, it doesn’t mean that Jesus had superpowers (like omniscience or whatever)—otherwise he could hardly be an example for us to follow. And this is precisely what’s remarkable about Christianity, in my opinion, is that our doctrine of God has at its very heart a self-emptying God, a servant, who washes the feet of his disciples.
"According to the Old Testament God continually intervenes on earth but does not intervene at Auschwitz."
As for the OT record of YHWH’s dealings… I might suggest that he isn’t ‘continually’ intervening. He does in fact ‘intervene’, but that agency is frequently historically mediated, and more importantly, covenantally framed. The problem you raise is real, but I would suggest that Auschwitz is far more an indictment of the Church’s faithlessness at that juncture in history than it is of God’s unwillingness to ‘intervene’. Does God not require his faithful followers to ‘stand in the gap’? Was Jesus not incapable of producing ‘signs and wonders’ in his hometown for lack of faith? Here I think that the traditional vision of an ‘omnipotent’ God who ‘intervenes’ at certain points in history according to his whims is entirely unhelpful (a point Wright makes quite frequently I take it). I don’t claim to have solved the ‘problem of evil’, but I do think a more biblical worldview at least attenuates it such that the grief can be lived with and vocalized.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
-Daniel-
- Login or register to post comments
- view as page

Guerrilla Worship - Liverpool Flash Mob
Why YOU Should Plant a Church
Contradictions in the Gospels: Problems or Opportunities?
Day One: A Sir Toby's Creation Myth
A Generous Orthdoxy - Brian McLaren
The Lost World of Genesis One - John H. Walton