Spritiual Gifts, the Miraculous and the Emerging Church

I’m interested in hearing different beliefs/experiences of those who consider themselves part of the emerging/emergent church when it comes to the gifts of the Holy Spirit and signs and wonders etc.

As someone who is exploring all things postmodern and emerging I find it hard to discover any writing or concrete comment on this subject (maybe conrete isn’t the correct word - as I’m learning there is a lot more grey than black and white).

I’m not a theologian by any matter of means and I’m certainly not as eloquent as many of the contributers here on OST but I feel I must start this thread. I have found myself on a joureny of late - from a pseudo-Pentecostal/Charismatic/Evangelical background to a more post-modern, emerging, fresh expression of Christianity.

So, for some of those who may have walked this path before me….

What are some of the stances on the receiving, operation and understanding of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I’m not so much refering to the ‘ascension’ gifts (Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Teacher and Evengelist) but if the thread goes that way then so be it. I’m refering to the manifestations of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor 12:7-11 (commonly referred to as the word of wisdom, word of knowledge, the gift of faith, gifts of healing, miraculous powers, discerning of spirits, speaking in different kinds of tongues and interpretation of tongues). Also, how is the baptism of the Holy Spirit perceived?

I’m trying my best not to label or pin down any of this to a title, a doctrine or a tradition. Please fogive me if I’m refering to such things in ways that sound concretely fixed to any denomination or tradition.

In my experience I can witness to God’s power. I have seen and experienced the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

I have also witnessed an unhealthy weight placed upon such things and have seen the gifts and the ‘power/presence of God’ become idols to people and get treated like the be-all-and-end-all of Christian experience.

I guess the emerging expression breaks that mould and, personally, I thank God for that.

But I have a lot of unanswered questions around this partcular area and I’m very keen to dialog with others and see how they express such things as the ‘gifts of the Spirit’ in a post-modern, emerging context.

to ruffle any featI’m certainly not tryinghers with this.

I think some open and honest dialogue is required here as, from what I can tell, there are many in the Pentecostal/Charismatic tradition that seek to express themselves in a post-modern, emerging context but, like me, have a few unanswered questions.

Maybe I’m asking the wrong questions. Any guidance is much obliged.

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Re: Spritiual Gifts, the Miraculous and the Emerging Church

There have been a couple of threads on OST dealing directly with this issue: ‘Post-eschatological charismatic’ and ‘A Pneumatology for the emerging church’. It might be worth looking over those first and picking out any points of relevance before starting out again.

Re: Spritiual Gifts, the Miraculous and the Emerging Church

Greg,

The links which Andrew provides are certainly worth reading through.  Personally though, and I'll make this very brief, I'd just ask 'what are they for?'  That is, if someone has a gift (e.g. prophecy, healing, etc.), how is that person making use of the gift?  Since (and this is perhaps the context which Andrew would emphasize) the Church is called to embody New Creation, one might pray for discernment in seeing how the community of God's people is being built up by the use of these gifts (and I know, this is certainly not a new insight).  As long as the primary focus is on living out our mission as the people called by God to live under his rule, I think the 'Holy Spirit stuff' kind of sorts itself out.

Not sure this is helpful.  But I hope it is.

Cheers,

-Daniel-

Re: Spritiual Gifts, the Miraculous and the Emerging Church

The big difference that I would expect in a "post-charismatic" Emerging church is that the topic of what is "physically" happening during these "spiritual" happenings would NOT be off-limits.  I can't speak for the "Emerging Church" but I am right now in a home church group that is starting up and many of us are former members of a Charismatic church so I think I can relate to your experience.  We are "emergent types" and on the charismatic front we've seen it all including the good and the bad.

I made some of my best friends in the charismatic tradition and deepened my faith a great deal over those years.  I found the love and attentiveness to "ministry" and caring to be very rich and rewarding.  However I really disagree with the explanations that were given for what was going on.  I completely disagree with the "come holy spirit" approach that seemed to regard the holy spirit as a type of trained pet that could be conjured up and coersed into "visiting".  It just seemed manipulative and dishonest.  I don't think the ideas or even the ministry models need to be discarded, but I think there should be more open discussion and a welcoming of honest questions about exactly what is happening during ecstatic religious experiences.   Christians don't corner the market on these "experiences" so I think there is much more to them than the "visitation from the 3rd person of the trinity". There should be rational discussions about intuition and common sense vs. prophetic future telling and mind reading.  What I experienced was 100% the former and 0% of the later which is fine if everyone is open and honest, but of course everybody isn't.

If that is the case, then I think any discussion or practice of such things in a post-modern world needs to be much more open and willing to discuss questions about the recent advances in Neuroscience.  At the heart of this debate is a much deeper debate about the nature of man and his "soul". What exactly is a soul? What is its relation to the human brain.  Is it an ancient understanding of consciousness or is it a literal "thing" that exists beyond the death of our body.  I don't think you can begin to address the Holy Ghost until you've first come to grips with your own view about ghosts and spirits in general. One book of interest that I read recently is "Bodies and Souls, or Spirited Bodies" by Nancey Murphy. Murphey is professor of Christian Theology at Fuller Theological Seminary. I reveiwed the book on my blog here:

http://www.faithprogression.com/search?q=go+soul

I don't entirely agree with her positions, but the book does a wonderful job of laying open the issues and discusses the history of how man has talked about bodies and souls over the last 2000 years.  I don't think she goes far enough in rethinking the ancient world view, but it is a good start and could open a few mental doors for you as well.  The whole point of emerging faith is to open discussion rather than closing doors and turning questions away.

Re: Spritiual Gifts, the Miraculous and the Emerging Church

I’d just lke to pick up on both Daniel and Danutz’ comments.

Daniel, I totally agree on the concept of ‘the Holy Spirit’ stuff sorting itself out. I also firmly believe that if we, as believers, gather around Christ and truly let Him be the Head of His church then the activity and operation of the Spirit comes naturally. I also dont think it should happen any other way: the Holy Spirit is not something to be conjured up or controlled by what we want it any way. I think when we have too strong an emphasis on the gifts and manifestations we end up with something that is dangerous and unhealthy. If it’s not the Holy Spirit - what Spirit is it?

I guess that leads me on to Danutz’ comments.

I too am placing more importance on the ‘spiritual’ effects of the work of the Spirit.

I’ve been raised (and still attend) a Pentecostal church but I’ve been heavily influenced by the charismatic movement - including the prophetic/new apostolic movements.

I’ve seen so many people chase manifestations for years that they have missed the point. Furthermore, the have missed out on understanding the missional context of the gospel and have a ‘Spirit’ centred Christianity where Christ has been pushed to the side and greater emphasis is placed on manifestations - of which few can be found our evidenced in Scripture.

Like yourself, Danutz, I see myself and a few of my fellow believers starting an simple/organic church here in Scotland.

I dont wan tto take this off thread…so apologies if I’m getting off topic here…

I think the emerging church theology and way of thinking has a lot to offer people like myself. The main thing is re-emphasising the missional way of living for God and His plan to redeem all His creation. If people like myself, Charismatic/Pentecostals, would grasp how central missional living is to the gospel then I think it would change so much.

I thank God for the wine that has been poured out but I feel that, in my particular background, we have the wrong wineskin.

We were not redeemed to spend our lives chasing manifestations or commanding what demonstrations of power God should do fo us.

Don’t get me wrong - I’m so grateful work the work of the Spirit. But now, as I’m identifying more and more with the emergent conversation, I’m getting a fresh perspective on how my fous has been skewed. It’s not all bad though. This is the most exciting time in my walk - as I really do see a way forward in missional living, gathering as church round Christ’s headship and allowing Him to move, by His Spirit, as He would desire to build up the body.

I’m now undestanding the ‘Kindgdom of God’ (reading Mclaren just now) and how manifestations, signs and wonders and the gifts of the Spirit fit into things - to demonstrate that the Kingdom of God is at hand, here, now.

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