...And Justice for All?
The Atonement By: joeblow (58 replies) 15 November, 2004 - 14:01
- Re: The Atonement By: michwell (13/12/2007 - 01:08)
- Re: The Atonement By: jimjiminyjim (13/12/2007 - 19:13)
- Re: The Atonement By: (13/04/2006 - 20:58)
- Re: The Atonement - by Sharyn By: wray (12/12/2007 - 23:23)
- [Comment moved to new thread] By: (26/01/2006 - 06:57)
- Re: The Atonement By: (25/01/2006 - 04:34)
- Penal Substitution By: peter wilkinson (14/01/2005 - 20:46)
- Basic Elements of the Penal Substitution Model of the Atonement By: Victor_Martyr (13/01/2005 - 23:50)
- On justice getting in the way By: Khaareji (15/01/2005 - 05:28)
- "Penal substitution" stretches an analogy too far By: Chris (04/01/2005 - 21:34)
- The Law By: Qry (14/01/2005 - 08:30)
- Confused By: TheLogo (02/12/2004 - 06:59)
- Hebrews and the Penal Substitution By: Qry (31/12/2004 - 12:51)
- Re 1 and 2: By: ga_ge (31/12/2004 - 20:21)
- How does it work? By: Qry (01/01/2005 - 12:33)
- Hi Qry and HNY2U ALL! By: ga_ge (02/01/2005 - 14:58)
- Re: "Why can't this remain Mystery?" By: Qry (02/01/2005 - 16:58)
- By 'Mystery' I mean... By: ga_ge (03/01/2005 - 21:40)
- Re: "Why can't this remain Mystery?" By: Qry (02/01/2005 - 16:58)
- Hi Qry and HNY2U ALL! By: ga_ge (02/01/2005 - 14:58)
- Sacrificial System By: TheLogo (01/01/2005 - 01:50)
- How does it work? By: Qry (01/01/2005 - 12:33)
- Re 1 and 2: By: ga_ge (31/12/2004 - 20:21)
- Don't be :o) By: ga_ge (17/12/2004 - 17:24)
- Hebrews and the Penal Substitution By: Qry (31/12/2004 - 12:51)
- Atonement discussion forum topics By: joeblow (29/11/2004 - 18:03)
- Steve Chalke and cosmic child abuse By: andrew (29/11/2004 - 11:40)
- Steve Chalke's response to the EA By: joeblow (29/11/2004 - 18:08)
- timely... By: ga_ge (29/11/2004 - 17:14)
- The Parable of the Punitive Father By: Victor_Martyr (23/11/2004 - 22:49)
- Very Colorful but Perhaps not Precise By: Qry (01/01/2005 - 20:12)
- A Problem Parable By: ericboehmer (23/11/2004 - 23:28)
- The Parable of the Punitive Father By: Victor_Martyr (13/01/2005 - 15:13)
- I respectfully disagree... By: Matt (28/11/2004 - 19:12)
- First things first...? By: joeblow (22/11/2004 - 13:42)
- Re: First things first...? By: (20/12/2005 - 18:42)
- Re: First things first...? By: Qry (20/12/2005 - 22:47)
- Second things second... By: (22/11/2004 - 14:45)
- Extra category? By: Matt (22/11/2004 - 15:19)
- Yup! By: joeblow (22/11/2004 - 16:15)
- My suggestion would be that w By: andrew (22/11/2004 - 16:41)
- Good plan, Stan/Andrew By: joeblow (22/11/2004 - 17:47)
- My suggestion would be that w By: andrew (22/11/2004 - 16:41)
- Yup! By: joeblow (22/11/2004 - 16:15)
- Extra category? By: Matt (22/11/2004 - 15:19)
- Re: First things first...? By: (20/12/2005 - 18:42)
- Cosmic Child Abuse/Atonement By: (20/11/2004 - 04:10)
- ...And Justice for All? By: ga_ge (20/11/2004 - 20:15)
- Justice? Or slander against God? By: ross (20/11/2004 - 21:44)
- But we preach Christ crucified...(right?) By: Alario (21/11/2004 - 05:47)
- Good God, Charlie Brown! By: ga_ge (21/11/2004 - 15:58)
- A change in law is a change in constitution By: ga_ge (21/11/2004 - 02:24)
- One thing that disturbs me in By: ericboehmer (21/11/2004 - 00:02)
- But we preach Christ crucified...(right?) By: Alario (21/11/2004 - 05:47)
- Justice? Or slander against God? By: ross (20/11/2004 - 21:44)
- ...And Justice for All? By: ga_ge (20/11/2004 - 20:15)
- How to talk about the atonement By: (15/11/2004 - 16:50)
- Historically contingent analogies By: groundshero (22/11/2004 - 04:30)
- to joeblow By: ga_ge (15/11/2004 - 22:17)
- picking on penal substitution... By: joeblow (16/11/2004 - 13:48)
- Toning By: ga_ge (16/11/2004 - 16:32)
- Atonement By: Ken Cameron (07/07/2006 - 21:02)
- What kind of God needs a bribe to love? By: Matt (19/11/2004 - 14:17)
- National forgiveness and Yhwh's justice By: ericboehmer (20/11/2004 - 01:48)
- re: National forgiveness and Yhwh's justice By: davedyk (11/01/2005 - 01:22)
- freedom and responsibility By: ericboehmer (11/01/2005 - 07:03)
- National forgiveness I get; justice I don't By: Matt (22/11/2004 - 02:32)
- re: National forgiveness and Yhwh's justice By: davedyk (11/01/2005 - 01:22)
- National forgiveness and Yhwh's justice By: ericboehmer (20/11/2004 - 01:48)
- Toning By: ga_ge (16/11/2004 - 16:32)
- picking on penal substitution... By: joeblow (16/11/2004 - 13:48)
- 2 COR 5: 19 a) By: ga_ge (15/11/2004 - 15:05)
- 2 Co. 5:19 By: Qry (28/12/2004 - 22:33)
- Specifically... By: ga_ge (30/12/2004 - 23:49)
- 2 Co. 5:19 By: Qry (28/12/2004 - 22:33)
...And Justice for All?
Yep,
I’d run with Alario’s point re Justice: this is an act of judgement: the Son has willingly stepped into the gap to take it on the chin on our behalf - remember Jesus’ assurance at John 10: 17 - 18 where he does all things out of knowing and trusting God - a luxury that, for the time being, we don’t have (hence the “crisis” in our current culture of church and attempts to recover the gospel up and down the country). Not only does he trust the Father (whom we would slander), but he has a goal in mind that not even the suffering of the cross could impede - Hebrews 12: 2 states this boldly (i often wonder whether his ‘Joy’ that is spoken of here consists of the prospect of having His chidren back again - getting back what was lost in the Garden?). Finally, Hebrews 2: 9 - 11 are an extraordinary description of selflessness, sacrifice that is all-inclusiveness and BRINGS US IN.
If we baulk at the means He HAD to do this, then our Understanding of the LOrd is as far wide of the mark as any the UK Church has been guilty of at any time.
In another place (Hebrews 9: 22) it is made uncompromsingly clear why Jesus MUST die - after all, he was born under law to redeem those under law and I certainly will not countenance a ‘gospel’ that seeks to mollify ‘post-modern’ sensibilities at the loss of the awful knowledge of the Reality, Cost and Consequence of our Sinfulness
This is not an opportunity for insinuating abusiveness into the Godhead (Alario has made it distressingly clear what THAT constitutes): to speak of cosmic child-abuse is tantamount to slander and so, once again, it behoves us urgently to re-orientate our minds with a true knowledge and understanding of the character of God. I can call it slanderous becuse Jesus himself identifies “no-one as good, save God alone” (Mark 10: 18)
I confess I really am ultimately perplexed at the seeming ease with which such a sinful act of abusiveness can be RECONCILED with the Godhead - and it is the Gdhead we are slandering, NOT just the Father.