I appreciate Matt’s and ga_ge’s responses and insight. Permit me to comment at two points to Matt’s previous post.

1) In light of the general 2nd Temple Jewish mindset of continuing exile and the prophetic indications that its end would very well come *through* significant tribulation and/or martyrdom, Jesus death may be better understood, historically/jewishly, as the *sign* that YHWH had already forgiven Israel, that the exile was now over. We must remember that ‘forgiveness of sins’ was tied into the larger national hope for covenant renewal, not just at the individual level, but at the level of national liberation and the return of YHWH to her people.

2) In considering the ‘repugnance’ of the idea of penal substitution, no one has brought up the concept of justice. What kind of god is it that lets the terrible things in this world go unaccounted for, without an adequate challenge to the powers that perpetuate it? Might not the concept of necessary justice have something to say about substitutionary atonement? As Ivan in -Brothers Karamazov- we cry out for justice for the innocents who have been abused. But where can we find this justice if our god merely waves his hands and closes his eyes? The Jewish Scriptures are replete with the concept that YHWH would one day bring justice to bear on his creation, wrongs would be righted and righteousness rewarded.

I know that this actually plays out in more than just the two arbitrary divisions I’ve given. Oh well, have fun!