Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments
The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (86 replies) 31 October, 2007 - 00:44
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: njohnson (05/07/2008 - 01:53)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: samlcarr (24/12/2007 - 09:59)
- The bottom of the slide By: john doyle (23/12/2007 - 20:29)
- sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: john doyle (16/12/2007 - 00:03)
- Re: sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: enarchay (16/12/2007 - 01:40)
- Re: sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: john doyle (16/12/2007 - 20:02)
- Re: sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: enarchay (16/12/2007 - 01:40)
- without excuse in Romans 1 By: john doyle (12/12/2007 - 17:03)
- Re: without excuse in Romans 1 By: samlcarr (14/12/2007 - 22:54)
- the creation's corruption in Romans 8 By: john doyle (12/12/2007 - 01:26)
- Re: the creation's corruption in Romans 8 By: samlcarr (13/12/2007 - 14:18)
- the curse on childbearing By: john doyle (13/12/2007 - 18:07)
- birth of new creation By: john doyle (14/12/2007 - 22:46)
- the curse on childbearing By: john doyle (13/12/2007 - 18:07)
- Re: the creation's corruption in Romans 8 By: samlcarr (13/12/2007 - 14:18)
- original sin (continued) By: john doyle (08/12/2007 - 01:45)
- original sin? By: john doyle (06/12/2007 - 16:57)
- death and immortality By: john doyle (01/12/2007 - 17:16)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (03/12/2007 - 20:44)
- Re: death and immortality By: samlcarr (04/12/2007 - 19:57)
- Re: death and immortality By: enarchay (05/12/2007 - 04:13)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (05/12/2007 - 02:12)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (04/12/2007 - 11:15)
- Re: death and immortality By: samlcarr (04/12/2007 - 19:57)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (03/12/2007 - 20:44)
- son of Adam, son of God By: john doyle (29/11/2007 - 14:43)
- one flesh By: john doyle (27/11/2007 - 23:07)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (27/11/2007 - 19:53)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 06:05)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 18:26)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: danielbooy (29/11/2007 - 02:03)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (28/11/2007 - 21:23)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 22:22)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (28/11/2007 - 22:52)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 22:22)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: samlcarr (28/11/2007 - 09:28)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 18:26)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (27/11/2007 - 20:46)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 04:37)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (28/11/2007 - 07:00)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 04:37)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 06:05)
- Re: agnostic Paul By: samlcarr (26/11/2007 - 09:19)
- Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (25/11/2007 - 08:06)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: gborchardt (11/01/2008 - 20:34)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: john doyle (25/11/2007 - 23:17)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (26/11/2007 - 07:49)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: samlcarr (26/11/2007 - 20:26)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 05:48)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: john doyle (26/11/2007 - 16:30)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 02:21)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: samlcarr (26/11/2007 - 20:26)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (26/11/2007 - 07:49)
- if only we had the data By: samlcarr (23/11/2007 - 17:34)
- Re: if only we had the data By: john doyle (24/11/2007 - 23:28)
- agnostic Paul By: samlcarr (25/11/2007 - 12:31)
- Re: agnostic Paul By: john doyle (25/11/2007 - 20:55)
- agnostic Paul By: samlcarr (25/11/2007 - 12:31)
- Re: if only we had the data By: john doyle (24/11/2007 - 23:28)
- Pauline sexism By: john doyle (21/11/2007 - 23:34)
- Re: Pauline sexism By: Andrew (22/11/2007 - 12:54)
- Re: Pauline sexism By: john doyle (23/11/2007 - 16:02)
- Re: Pauline sexism By: Andrew (22/11/2007 - 12:54)
- Jesus cites Gen. 1&2 By: john doyle (19/11/2007 - 21:20)
- The Word as Creator By: john doyle (15/11/2007 - 20:56)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: samlcarr (16/11/2007 - 04:22)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 05:44)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 17:09)
- John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (17/11/2007 - 23:54)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (18/11/2007 - 19:30)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (19/11/2007 - 03:44)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (19/11/2007 - 09:12)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (19/11/2007 - 22:49)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (20/11/2007 - 02:03)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (20/11/2007 - 13:31)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (20/11/2007 - 00:51)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (20/11/2007 - 02:03)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (19/11/2007 - 22:49)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (19/11/2007 - 09:12)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (19/11/2007 - 01:47)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (19/11/2007 - 03:44)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (18/11/2007 - 19:30)
- John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (17/11/2007 - 23:54)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 17:09)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 05:44)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: samlcarr (16/11/2007 - 04:22)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 01:53)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (14/11/2007 - 04:46)
- narratives and propositions By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 13:30)
- Re: narratives and propositions By: Jacob (14/11/2007 - 16:18)
- narratives and propositions By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 13:30)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: samlcarr (14/11/2007 - 02:07)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 03:47)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (14/11/2007 - 04:46)
- slippery slopes By: samlcarr (06/11/2007 - 07:55)
- Slippery Slope as theme park ride By: john doyle (07/11/2007 - 18:25)
- Creator-God in the New Testament By: john doyle (08/11/2007 - 20:05)
- Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: john doyle (09/11/2007 - 19:56)
- Re: Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: samlcarr (11/11/2007 - 17:16)
- Why only Genesis 1-3? By: john doyle (12/11/2007 - 22:40)
- Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (13/11/2007 - 00:04)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (13/11/2007 - 01:40)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: shiert (13/11/2007 - 19:17)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (13/11/2007 - 01:40)
- Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (13/11/2007 - 00:04)
- Why only Genesis 1-3? By: john doyle (12/11/2007 - 22:40)
- Re: Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: samlcarr (11/11/2007 - 17:16)
- Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: john doyle (09/11/2007 - 19:56)
- Creator-God in the New Testament By: john doyle (08/11/2007 - 20:05)
- Slippery Slope as theme park ride By: john doyle (07/11/2007 - 18:25)
- 'story' as thought experiments By: sacred vapor (04/11/2007 - 04:30)
- Re: 'story' as thought experiments By: shanemagee (04/11/2007 - 15:42)
- narrative integrity By: john doyle (04/11/2007 - 22:33)
- inerrancy debates By: john doyle (04/11/2007 - 22:52)
- narrative integrity By: john doyle (04/11/2007 - 22:33)
- Re: 'story' as thought experiments By: shanemagee (04/11/2007 - 15:42)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: Andrew (01/11/2007 - 19:07)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 19:46)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 20:06)
- inerrancy debates By: john doyle (02/11/2007 - 16:55)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 20:06)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 19:46)
Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments
Interesting. I really loved Enns’ book. But you are right, I think, that there is no satisfying “synthesis.” I wonder, though, if it is unrealistic to expect such a synthesis?
I’d suggest that framing this discussion in terms of “acting as though the text were not inerrant” is a mistake. Immediately, that drives us into competing categories of “truth” and “error,” and we’re forced to put the text into one of those boxes.
Maybe a better question is, “what literary genre is this text?” If the text is not intended to be a simple factual narrative genre, then it is not in “error” if it omits some details or recasts some events using symbolic language or figures.
Within the text itself, there are some good reasons to ask questions about genre. For example, the sun appears well after the first “day”; the days seem to have a parallel structure (see Henri Blocher’s commentary on this “framework” approach); then there is the garden with teh magical trees and talking snake. The text also bears similarities to, but also important differences with, earlier Mesopotamian creation myths, suggesting that it has a polemical purpose rather than merely being reportage. And other parts of the text that we don’t often focus on assume a typical ancient near eastern cosmology in which the earth is the center of the universe and the sky is a solid tent supported by pillars (See John Walton, Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament).
OTOH, starting with Gen. 2, notwithstanding the mystical elements, the text seems to take on something of a more concrete form, suggesting that it is not entirely fictional or allegorical. It seems to me, then, to be a mixed genre that might not even be entirely familiar to us today.
A very interesting study on the genre of these narratives is an older book, Conrad Hyers, The Meaning of Creation. I’m not sure I agree with Hyers because he views these narratives as essentially non-historical. However, Hyers illustrates very well how the text is primarily a polemic against the Babylonian creation myths.
One of the reasons, then, that there is no satisfying “synthesis” of these texts and modern science is that the texts serve entirely different purposes than those that interest modern science. They are not simple “scientific” or even simple “historical” documents. I maintain that they are historical narratives of a sort, but the genre is a very unique and one that selectively reports certain information for polemical purposes within an ancient near eastern cosmological and mythic framework. This isn’t “error” — it’s exactly what the text is meant to do.