Re: Myth and the Scientific Method
The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (86 replies) 31 October, 2007 - 00:44
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: njohnson (05/07/2008 - 01:53)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: samlcarr (24/12/2007 - 09:59)
- The bottom of the slide By: john doyle (23/12/2007 - 20:29)
- sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: john doyle (16/12/2007 - 00:03)
- Re: sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: enarchay (16/12/2007 - 01:40)
- Re: sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: john doyle (16/12/2007 - 20:02)
- Re: sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: enarchay (16/12/2007 - 01:40)
- without excuse in Romans 1 By: john doyle (12/12/2007 - 17:03)
- Re: without excuse in Romans 1 By: samlcarr (14/12/2007 - 22:54)
- the creation's corruption in Romans 8 By: john doyle (12/12/2007 - 01:26)
- Re: the creation's corruption in Romans 8 By: samlcarr (13/12/2007 - 14:18)
- the curse on childbearing By: john doyle (13/12/2007 - 18:07)
- birth of new creation By: john doyle (14/12/2007 - 22:46)
- the curse on childbearing By: john doyle (13/12/2007 - 18:07)
- Re: the creation's corruption in Romans 8 By: samlcarr (13/12/2007 - 14:18)
- original sin (continued) By: john doyle (08/12/2007 - 01:45)
- original sin? By: john doyle (06/12/2007 - 16:57)
- death and immortality By: john doyle (01/12/2007 - 17:16)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (03/12/2007 - 20:44)
- Re: death and immortality By: samlcarr (04/12/2007 - 19:57)
- Re: death and immortality By: enarchay (05/12/2007 - 04:13)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (05/12/2007 - 02:12)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (04/12/2007 - 11:15)
- Re: death and immortality By: samlcarr (04/12/2007 - 19:57)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (03/12/2007 - 20:44)
- son of Adam, son of God By: john doyle (29/11/2007 - 14:43)
- one flesh By: john doyle (27/11/2007 - 23:07)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (27/11/2007 - 19:53)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 06:05)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 18:26)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: danielbooy (29/11/2007 - 02:03)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (28/11/2007 - 21:23)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 22:22)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (28/11/2007 - 22:52)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 22:22)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: samlcarr (28/11/2007 - 09:28)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 18:26)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (27/11/2007 - 20:46)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 04:37)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (28/11/2007 - 07:00)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 04:37)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 06:05)
- Re: agnostic Paul By: samlcarr (26/11/2007 - 09:19)
- Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (25/11/2007 - 08:06)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: gborchardt (11/01/2008 - 20:34)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: john doyle (25/11/2007 - 23:17)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (26/11/2007 - 07:49)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: samlcarr (26/11/2007 - 20:26)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 05:48)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: john doyle (26/11/2007 - 16:30)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 02:21)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: samlcarr (26/11/2007 - 20:26)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (26/11/2007 - 07:49)
- if only we had the data By: samlcarr (23/11/2007 - 17:34)
- Re: if only we had the data By: john doyle (24/11/2007 - 23:28)
- agnostic Paul By: samlcarr (25/11/2007 - 12:31)
- Re: agnostic Paul By: john doyle (25/11/2007 - 20:55)
- agnostic Paul By: samlcarr (25/11/2007 - 12:31)
- Re: if only we had the data By: john doyle (24/11/2007 - 23:28)
- Pauline sexism By: john doyle (21/11/2007 - 23:34)
- Re: Pauline sexism By: Andrew (22/11/2007 - 12:54)
- Re: Pauline sexism By: john doyle (23/11/2007 - 16:02)
- Re: Pauline sexism By: Andrew (22/11/2007 - 12:54)
- Jesus cites Gen. 1&2 By: john doyle (19/11/2007 - 21:20)
- The Word as Creator By: john doyle (15/11/2007 - 20:56)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: samlcarr (16/11/2007 - 04:22)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 05:44)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 17:09)
- John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (17/11/2007 - 23:54)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (18/11/2007 - 19:30)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (19/11/2007 - 03:44)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (19/11/2007 - 09:12)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (19/11/2007 - 22:49)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (20/11/2007 - 02:03)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (20/11/2007 - 13:31)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (20/11/2007 - 00:51)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (20/11/2007 - 02:03)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (19/11/2007 - 22:49)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (19/11/2007 - 09:12)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (19/11/2007 - 01:47)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (19/11/2007 - 03:44)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (18/11/2007 - 19:30)
- John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (17/11/2007 - 23:54)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 17:09)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 05:44)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: samlcarr (16/11/2007 - 04:22)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 01:53)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (14/11/2007 - 04:46)
- narratives and propositions By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 13:30)
- Re: narratives and propositions By: Jacob (14/11/2007 - 16:18)
- narratives and propositions By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 13:30)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: samlcarr (14/11/2007 - 02:07)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 03:47)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (14/11/2007 - 04:46)
- slippery slopes By: samlcarr (06/11/2007 - 07:55)
- Slippery Slope as theme park ride By: john doyle (07/11/2007 - 18:25)
- Creator-God in the New Testament By: john doyle (08/11/2007 - 20:05)
- Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: john doyle (09/11/2007 - 19:56)
- Re: Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: samlcarr (11/11/2007 - 17:16)
- Why only Genesis 1-3? By: john doyle (12/11/2007 - 22:40)
- Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (13/11/2007 - 00:04)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (13/11/2007 - 01:40)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: shiert (13/11/2007 - 19:17)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (13/11/2007 - 01:40)
- Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (13/11/2007 - 00:04)
- Why only Genesis 1-3? By: john doyle (12/11/2007 - 22:40)
- Re: Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: samlcarr (11/11/2007 - 17:16)
- Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: john doyle (09/11/2007 - 19:56)
- Creator-God in the New Testament By: john doyle (08/11/2007 - 20:05)
- Slippery Slope as theme park ride By: john doyle (07/11/2007 - 18:25)
- 'story' as thought experiments By: sacred vapor (04/11/2007 - 04:30)
- Re: 'story' as thought experiments By: shanemagee (04/11/2007 - 15:42)
- narrative integrity By: john doyle (04/11/2007 - 22:33)
- inerrancy debates By: john doyle (04/11/2007 - 22:52)
- narrative integrity By: john doyle (04/11/2007 - 22:33)
- Re: 'story' as thought experiments By: shanemagee (04/11/2007 - 15:42)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: Andrew (01/11/2007 - 19:07)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 19:46)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 20:06)
- inerrancy debates By: john doyle (02/11/2007 - 16:55)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 20:06)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 19:46)
Re: Myth and the Scientific Method
I’m glad you’re enjoying the ride down the slippery slide, danielbooy, even if you find it alien to your usual way of experiencing things spiritual.
I don’t think you’re alone in your skepticism regarding scientific discourse. You may be familiar with Lyotard’s famous proclamation: I define postmodern as incredulity toward metanarratives. Lyotard’s next sentence reads like this: This incredulity is undoubtedly a product of progress in the sciences: but that progress in turn presupposes it. In other words, science’s pecking away at the religious metanarrative is itself a fruit of the scientific metanarrative. Arguably the converse is also true: religion launches its critiques of the scientific metanarrative from a position within the religious metanarrative.
The traditional evangelical approach to Genesis 1-3 has been to regard the text as inerrant and literally true. Various interpretive moves have been deployed in an effort to bring these narratives into closer conformity with what seems to be the case; namely, that the universe unfolded over billions of years rather than in six literal days. That’s one way to go, and it poses its own problems. At the top of this post I provide a link to another post called "Genesis 1 as True Myth." In that post we’ve explored a recently-ventured paradigm for reading the creation narratives as true without necessarily regarding them as historically accurate. That’s another way to go.
This post explores a third way: scrap the Genesis creation narratives altogether. The string of comments looks at implications for Christianity of performing this textual excision. All three approaches acknowledge that scientific theories and findings conflict with Genesis 1-3, and that the scientists might be right about the "how" and the "when" if not the "who" and the "why."
It might be worth noting that skepticism regarding the Genesis creation narrative isn’t restricted to the modern age. The Epistle of Barnabas, a text most likely written in the early second century that for awhile looked as though it might be included in the NT canon, says this:
Origen, a third-century apologist for the Christian faith, wrestled with some apparent impossibilities in Genesis 1; for example, that God created evening and morning on day one but didn’t create the sun until day three. Origen offered an allegorical, spiritualized interpretation for the entire creation story:
Writing in the fourth century Augustine acknowledged:
And so on — the ancient Church Fathers and medieval Schoolmen offered some very creative "spiritual" readings of Genesis 1-3. It might be worthwhile investigating whether any of these readings can be reinvigorated for contemporary readership — that might be a fourth project, which I probably won’t pursue.
"I simply see no reason for Christianity, theology, philosophy, etc., to
submit themselves to the haughty authority of the scientific method,
author of boring and uninspiring fictions."
Then don’t do it. If you don’t have difficulty believing that the first woman was made
from the rib of the first man, or that snakes crawl on their bellies
because they were cursed by God, then none of these alternative approaches to reading the creation narratives is
going to be of much interest to you. Something like half the adults in America have no problem with the story as written either. The other half of us do.
"The liberty of deconstruction is, for me, the freedom to religion, from positivism and all its bastard children."
I’d say that this post is an exercise not so much in deconstruction but in what Deleuze and Guattari called "deterritorialization" — the effacing of well-worn channels and roadways by which we habitually traverse the world of experience. Scripture, tradition and subjective intuition tend to converge on an "overdetermined" territorialization of Christianity. This post is only one exercise in loosening up the ties holding the structure of the "metanarrative" together — many other such exercises can be imagined. I suspect you’d agree that loosening the structures is often an essential step in re-opening the "formless void" from which the unprecedented emerges.