The Word as Creator
The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (86 replies) 31 October, 2007 - 00:44
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: njohnson (05/07/2008 - 01:53)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: samlcarr (24/12/2007 - 09:59)
- The bottom of the slide By: john doyle (23/12/2007 - 20:29)
- sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: john doyle (16/12/2007 - 00:03)
- Re: sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: enarchay (16/12/2007 - 01:40)
- Re: sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: john doyle (16/12/2007 - 20:02)
- Re: sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: enarchay (16/12/2007 - 01:40)
- without excuse in Romans 1 By: john doyle (12/12/2007 - 17:03)
- Re: without excuse in Romans 1 By: samlcarr (14/12/2007 - 22:54)
- the creation's corruption in Romans 8 By: john doyle (12/12/2007 - 01:26)
- Re: the creation's corruption in Romans 8 By: samlcarr (13/12/2007 - 14:18)
- the curse on childbearing By: john doyle (13/12/2007 - 18:07)
- birth of new creation By: john doyle (14/12/2007 - 22:46)
- the curse on childbearing By: john doyle (13/12/2007 - 18:07)
- Re: the creation's corruption in Romans 8 By: samlcarr (13/12/2007 - 14:18)
- original sin (continued) By: john doyle (08/12/2007 - 01:45)
- original sin? By: john doyle (06/12/2007 - 16:57)
- death and immortality By: john doyle (01/12/2007 - 17:16)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (03/12/2007 - 20:44)
- Re: death and immortality By: samlcarr (04/12/2007 - 19:57)
- Re: death and immortality By: enarchay (05/12/2007 - 04:13)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (05/12/2007 - 02:12)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (04/12/2007 - 11:15)
- Re: death and immortality By: samlcarr (04/12/2007 - 19:57)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (03/12/2007 - 20:44)
- son of Adam, son of God By: john doyle (29/11/2007 - 14:43)
- one flesh By: john doyle (27/11/2007 - 23:07)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (27/11/2007 - 19:53)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 06:05)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 18:26)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: danielbooy (29/11/2007 - 02:03)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (28/11/2007 - 21:23)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 22:22)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (28/11/2007 - 22:52)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 22:22)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: samlcarr (28/11/2007 - 09:28)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 18:26)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (27/11/2007 - 20:46)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 04:37)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (28/11/2007 - 07:00)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 04:37)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 06:05)
- Re: agnostic Paul By: samlcarr (26/11/2007 - 09:19)
- Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (25/11/2007 - 08:06)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: gborchardt (11/01/2008 - 20:34)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: john doyle (25/11/2007 - 23:17)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (26/11/2007 - 07:49)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: samlcarr (26/11/2007 - 20:26)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 05:48)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: john doyle (26/11/2007 - 16:30)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 02:21)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: samlcarr (26/11/2007 - 20:26)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (26/11/2007 - 07:49)
- if only we had the data By: samlcarr (23/11/2007 - 17:34)
- Re: if only we had the data By: john doyle (24/11/2007 - 23:28)
- agnostic Paul By: samlcarr (25/11/2007 - 12:31)
- Re: agnostic Paul By: john doyle (25/11/2007 - 20:55)
- agnostic Paul By: samlcarr (25/11/2007 - 12:31)
- Re: if only we had the data By: john doyle (24/11/2007 - 23:28)
- Pauline sexism By: john doyle (21/11/2007 - 23:34)
- Re: Pauline sexism By: Andrew (22/11/2007 - 12:54)
- Re: Pauline sexism By: john doyle (23/11/2007 - 16:02)
- Re: Pauline sexism By: Andrew (22/11/2007 - 12:54)
- Jesus cites Gen. 1&2 By: john doyle (19/11/2007 - 21:20)
- The Word as Creator By: john doyle (15/11/2007 - 20:56)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: samlcarr (16/11/2007 - 04:22)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 05:44)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 17:09)
- John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (17/11/2007 - 23:54)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (18/11/2007 - 19:30)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (19/11/2007 - 03:44)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (19/11/2007 - 09:12)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (19/11/2007 - 22:49)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (20/11/2007 - 02:03)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (20/11/2007 - 13:31)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (20/11/2007 - 00:51)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (20/11/2007 - 02:03)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (19/11/2007 - 22:49)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (19/11/2007 - 09:12)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (19/11/2007 - 01:47)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (19/11/2007 - 03:44)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (18/11/2007 - 19:30)
- John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (17/11/2007 - 23:54)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 17:09)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 05:44)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: samlcarr (16/11/2007 - 04:22)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 01:53)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (14/11/2007 - 04:46)
- narratives and propositions By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 13:30)
- Re: narratives and propositions By: Jacob (14/11/2007 - 16:18)
- narratives and propositions By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 13:30)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: samlcarr (14/11/2007 - 02:07)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 03:47)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (14/11/2007 - 04:46)
- slippery slopes By: samlcarr (06/11/2007 - 07:55)
- Slippery Slope as theme park ride By: john doyle (07/11/2007 - 18:25)
- Creator-God in the New Testament By: john doyle (08/11/2007 - 20:05)
- Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: john doyle (09/11/2007 - 19:56)
- Re: Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: samlcarr (11/11/2007 - 17:16)
- Why only Genesis 1-3? By: john doyle (12/11/2007 - 22:40)
- Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (13/11/2007 - 00:04)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (13/11/2007 - 01:40)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: shiert (13/11/2007 - 19:17)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (13/11/2007 - 01:40)
- Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (13/11/2007 - 00:04)
- Why only Genesis 1-3? By: john doyle (12/11/2007 - 22:40)
- Re: Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: samlcarr (11/11/2007 - 17:16)
- Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: john doyle (09/11/2007 - 19:56)
- Creator-God in the New Testament By: john doyle (08/11/2007 - 20:05)
- Slippery Slope as theme park ride By: john doyle (07/11/2007 - 18:25)
- 'story' as thought experiments By: sacred vapor (04/11/2007 - 04:30)
- Re: 'story' as thought experiments By: shanemagee (04/11/2007 - 15:42)
- narrative integrity By: john doyle (04/11/2007 - 22:33)
- inerrancy debates By: john doyle (04/11/2007 - 22:52)
- narrative integrity By: john doyle (04/11/2007 - 22:33)
- Re: 'story' as thought experiments By: shanemagee (04/11/2007 - 15:42)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: Andrew (01/11/2007 - 19:07)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 19:46)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 20:06)
- inerrancy debates By: john doyle (02/11/2007 - 16:55)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 20:06)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 19:46)
The Word as Creator
Would the Gospel of John begin the way it does if Genesis 1 hadn’t been part of the Torah? The structural parallel is unmistakable: both passages begin "in the beginning," both speak of God’s creation of the universe.
Does John’s reference to Christ as the Logos — the Word — rely on the Genesis creation narrative? That’s less clear. God certainly speaks words in Genesis 1, but the writer never says anything about "the word of God." Rather the creation formula is "God said… and there was." The Biblical use of "said" isn’t distinctive to God: in Genesis 3 the woman "said" to the serpent, the serpent "said" to the woman, the man "said" to God, etc. And while God’s words seem to have creative force in Genesis 1, the writer certainly never personifies God’s words the way John personifies the Logos. Neither does any other Old Testament writer, for that matter. Nor does any New Testament writer other than John.
Still, is it likely that the writer of the fourth Gospel drew his inspiration for this unique idea of Jesus as the Word from the Genesis 1 creation formula, wherein what God says comes into being? It’s hard to say for sure, but apparently not. John makes repeated references to God’s words
and even Jesus’s words, without ever repeating the personification of
Word from the first chapter. For John, "the Word" doesn’t just mean what God says — he seems to have a larger, more abstract concept of Logos in mind.
Long before Christ the Greeks imbued the word logos with philosophical importance. For Heraclitus (6thC BC) logos meant relation, proportion, meaning, universal law, truth. For Socrates (5thC BC) intellectual reflection through dialogue discovers the logos, the community understanding, of things. In the ancient mystery cults the lesser deities are said to have become logos, bringing form to the world, mediating between God on one side and matter/man on the other. The Hellenistic Jews of Jesus’s time associated Logos with the personified Wisdom of Proverbs 8 who existed with God before the creation. In sum, John’s applying the term Logos to Christ as God and Creator probably did not derive from his interpretation of Genesis 1.