Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation
The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (86 replies) 31 October, 2007 - 00:44
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: njohnson (05/07/2008 - 01:53)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: samlcarr (24/12/2007 - 09:59)
- The bottom of the slide By: john doyle (23/12/2007 - 20:29)
- sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: john doyle (16/12/2007 - 00:03)
- Re: sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: enarchay (16/12/2007 - 01:40)
- Re: sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: john doyle (16/12/2007 - 20:02)
- Re: sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 By: enarchay (16/12/2007 - 01:40)
- without excuse in Romans 1 By: john doyle (12/12/2007 - 17:03)
- Re: without excuse in Romans 1 By: samlcarr (14/12/2007 - 22:54)
- the creation's corruption in Romans 8 By: john doyle (12/12/2007 - 01:26)
- Re: the creation's corruption in Romans 8 By: samlcarr (13/12/2007 - 14:18)
- the curse on childbearing By: john doyle (13/12/2007 - 18:07)
- birth of new creation By: john doyle (14/12/2007 - 22:46)
- the curse on childbearing By: john doyle (13/12/2007 - 18:07)
- Re: the creation's corruption in Romans 8 By: samlcarr (13/12/2007 - 14:18)
- original sin (continued) By: john doyle (08/12/2007 - 01:45)
- original sin? By: john doyle (06/12/2007 - 16:57)
- death and immortality By: john doyle (01/12/2007 - 17:16)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (03/12/2007 - 20:44)
- Re: death and immortality By: samlcarr (04/12/2007 - 19:57)
- Re: death and immortality By: enarchay (05/12/2007 - 04:13)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (05/12/2007 - 02:12)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (04/12/2007 - 11:15)
- Re: death and immortality By: samlcarr (04/12/2007 - 19:57)
- Re: death and immortality By: john doyle (03/12/2007 - 20:44)
- son of Adam, son of God By: john doyle (29/11/2007 - 14:43)
- one flesh By: john doyle (27/11/2007 - 23:07)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (27/11/2007 - 19:53)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 06:05)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 18:26)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: danielbooy (29/11/2007 - 02:03)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (28/11/2007 - 21:23)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 22:22)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (28/11/2007 - 22:52)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 22:22)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: samlcarr (28/11/2007 - 09:28)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 18:26)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (27/11/2007 - 20:46)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 04:37)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (28/11/2007 - 07:00)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: dbecke (28/11/2007 - 04:37)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 06:05)
- Re: agnostic Paul By: samlcarr (26/11/2007 - 09:19)
- Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (25/11/2007 - 08:06)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: gborchardt (11/01/2008 - 20:34)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: john doyle (25/11/2007 - 23:17)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (26/11/2007 - 07:49)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: samlcarr (26/11/2007 - 20:26)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 05:48)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: john doyle (26/11/2007 - 16:30)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (28/11/2007 - 02:21)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: samlcarr (26/11/2007 - 20:26)
- Re: Myth and the Scientific Method By: danielbooy (26/11/2007 - 07:49)
- if only we had the data By: samlcarr (23/11/2007 - 17:34)
- Re: if only we had the data By: john doyle (24/11/2007 - 23:28)
- agnostic Paul By: samlcarr (25/11/2007 - 12:31)
- Re: agnostic Paul By: john doyle (25/11/2007 - 20:55)
- agnostic Paul By: samlcarr (25/11/2007 - 12:31)
- Re: if only we had the data By: john doyle (24/11/2007 - 23:28)
- Pauline sexism By: john doyle (21/11/2007 - 23:34)
- Re: Pauline sexism By: Andrew (22/11/2007 - 12:54)
- Re: Pauline sexism By: john doyle (23/11/2007 - 16:02)
- Re: Pauline sexism By: Andrew (22/11/2007 - 12:54)
- Jesus cites Gen. 1&2 By: john doyle (19/11/2007 - 21:20)
- The Word as Creator By: john doyle (15/11/2007 - 20:56)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: samlcarr (16/11/2007 - 04:22)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 05:44)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 17:09)
- John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (17/11/2007 - 23:54)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (18/11/2007 - 19:30)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (19/11/2007 - 03:44)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (19/11/2007 - 09:12)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (19/11/2007 - 22:49)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (20/11/2007 - 02:03)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (20/11/2007 - 13:31)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (20/11/2007 - 00:51)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (20/11/2007 - 02:03)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (19/11/2007 - 22:49)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: enarchay (19/11/2007 - 09:12)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (19/11/2007 - 01:47)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (19/11/2007 - 03:44)
- Re: John 1:1c - "a god." By: john doyle (18/11/2007 - 19:30)
- John 1:1c - "a god." By: JohnOneOne (17/11/2007 - 23:54)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 17:09)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: john doyle (16/11/2007 - 05:44)
- Re: The Word as Creator By: samlcarr (16/11/2007 - 04:22)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 01:53)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (14/11/2007 - 04:46)
- narratives and propositions By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 13:30)
- Re: narratives and propositions By: Jacob (14/11/2007 - 16:18)
- narratives and propositions By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 13:30)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: samlcarr (14/11/2007 - 02:07)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (14/11/2007 - 03:47)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (14/11/2007 - 04:46)
- slippery slopes By: samlcarr (06/11/2007 - 07:55)
- Slippery Slope as theme park ride By: john doyle (07/11/2007 - 18:25)
- Creator-God in the New Testament By: john doyle (08/11/2007 - 20:05)
- Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: john doyle (09/11/2007 - 19:56)
- Re: Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: samlcarr (11/11/2007 - 17:16)
- Why only Genesis 1-3? By: john doyle (12/11/2007 - 22:40)
- Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (13/11/2007 - 00:04)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (13/11/2007 - 01:40)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: shiert (13/11/2007 - 19:17)
- Re: Is Christ eternally human? By: enarchay (13/11/2007 - 01:40)
- Is Christ eternally human? By: john doyle (13/11/2007 - 00:04)
- Why only Genesis 1-3? By: john doyle (12/11/2007 - 22:40)
- Re: Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: samlcarr (11/11/2007 - 17:16)
- Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation By: john doyle (09/11/2007 - 19:56)
- Creator-God in the New Testament By: john doyle (08/11/2007 - 20:05)
- Slippery Slope as theme park ride By: john doyle (07/11/2007 - 18:25)
- 'story' as thought experiments By: sacred vapor (04/11/2007 - 04:30)
- Re: 'story' as thought experiments By: shanemagee (04/11/2007 - 15:42)
- narrative integrity By: john doyle (04/11/2007 - 22:33)
- inerrancy debates By: john doyle (04/11/2007 - 22:52)
- narrative integrity By: john doyle (04/11/2007 - 22:33)
- Re: 'story' as thought experiments By: shanemagee (04/11/2007 - 15:42)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: Andrew (01/11/2007 - 19:07)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 19:46)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 20:06)
- inerrancy debates By: john doyle (02/11/2007 - 16:55)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 20:06)
- Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments By: john doyle (01/11/2007 - 19:46)
Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation
Before moving on to specific citations of the Genesis 1-3 narrative in the New Testament, I want to take a little closer look at ways in which the Old Testament idea of creation is modified in the New.
In my last comment I noted that Paul and John place Christ at the beginning with God as mediator of the creation. This move pulls Christ out of his incarnation in a specific place and time, making him equal or identical to Yahweh himself. It also establishes Christ as mediator not just in the specific context of the Mosaic covenant but all the way back to the beginning. Presumably, then, whenever mediation between God and the world has taken place in history, Christ-as-God has been the mediator.
However, in a well-known passage Paul says that there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (I Timothy 2:5). Not Christ as God, but Christ as man, is mediator. We’re entering into nuances of Christian trinitarian theology here: whenever Christ-as-God has served as mediator between God and men, or even between God and the creation, has he always done so in the form of Christ-as-man? Is the second person of the trinity, "the Word" in John’s terminology, eternally man as well as God?
This is the kind of question I suspect the early church fathers and the medievalists wrestled with at length. I don’t know what they decided. Every time God and man interact directly, God makes himself accessible on human terms: he speaks in human language that humans can either hear or read; sometimes he makes himself visible to human eyes; he causes events to happen in the material world that can be perceived by humans. Maybe this sort of mediation between divine and human is always the work of Christ as the eternally human.
Christ isn’t just the mediator of creation in the NT; he’s also the firstborn of creation.
We might hypothesize that, for Paul, God began the creation by entering into the to-be-created material world in the person of Christ. Christ the material mediator of creation is "the image of the invisible God." But Christ is also firstborn of creation: man comes into the world in the image of the firstborn, as a material manifestation of the invisible God.
None of this speculation directly contradicts the Old Testament. None of it relies directly on the Genesis 1-3 narratives. I don’t think any of it contradicts orthodox Christian teaching. Or am I mistaken?