Re: reading from inside the story
Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: john doyle (120 replies) 9 January, 2007 - 11:50
- Eden pushed back a few thousand years? By: samlcarr (09/02/2008 - 12:41)
- Re: Eden pushed back a few thousand years? By: john doyle (10/02/2008 - 17:56)
- Re: Eden pushed back a few thousand years? By: samlcarr (17/02/2008 - 13:03)
- Re: Eden pushed back a few thousand years? By: john doyle (10/02/2008 - 17:56)
- Pandora's Box of deadly utopias By: samlcarr (24/12/2007 - 10:36)
- Re: Pandora's Box of deadly utopias By: john doyle (25/12/2007 - 02:25)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (04/12/2007 - 20:47)
- To Dominate and to Subjugate? By: samlcarr (13/11/2007 - 15:48)
- Re: To Dominate and to Subjugate? By: john doyle (17/11/2007 - 00:26)
- Re: To Dominate and to Subjugate? By: samlcarr (25/11/2007 - 11:39)
- Option 6: One has to break the egg... By: samlcarr (27/11/2007 - 13:29)
- Re: To Dominate and to Subjugate? By: samlcarr (25/11/2007 - 11:39)
- Re: To Dominate and to Subjugate? By: john doyle (17/11/2007 - 00:26)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: buddy (10/11/2007 - 23:17)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (11/11/2007 - 16:51)
- Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 - Contrasting Natures of God By: samlcarr (22/10/2007 - 14:49)
- Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 - Contrasting Natures of God By: john doyle (23/10/2007 - 18:58)
- Re: Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 - Contrasting Natures of God By: samlcarr (01/11/2007 - 22:13)
- Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 - Contrasting Natures of God By: john doyle (23/10/2007 - 18:58)
- Gender, sexuality and all that stuff. By: samlcarr (07/10/2007 - 20:47)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (27/09/2007 - 16:29)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (28/09/2007 - 16:21)
- Genesis 2-3 By: john doyle (02/10/2007 - 16:15)
- Re: Genesis 2-3 By: jhimm (02/10/2007 - 19:54)
- Re: Genesis 2-3 By: john doyle (03/10/2007 - 13:09)
- you will surely die By: john doyle (05/10/2007 - 19:57)
- Re: you will surely die By: john (08/10/2007 - 21:37)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (09/10/2007 - 23:21)
- Re: you will surely die By: samlcarr (10/10/2007 - 07:43)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (12/10/2007 - 04:29)
- Re: you will surely die By: enarchay (12/10/2007 - 23:32)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (13/10/2007 - 04:08)
- Re: you will surely die By: samlcarr (13/10/2007 - 09:00)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (13/10/2007 - 04:08)
- Re: you will surely die By: john (12/10/2007 - 10:11)
- Re: you will surely die By: enarchay (12/10/2007 - 23:38)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (12/10/2007 - 19:58)
- Re: you will surely die By: enarchay (13/10/2007 - 10:13)
- Re: you will surely die By: samlcarr (12/10/2007 - 08:26)
- Re: you will surely die By: enarchay (12/10/2007 - 23:32)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (12/10/2007 - 04:29)
- Re: you will surely die By: enarchay (10/10/2007 - 07:36)
- Re: you will surely die By: samlcarr (10/10/2007 - 07:43)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (09/10/2007 - 23:21)
- Re: you will surely die By: enarchay (06/10/2007 - 02:02)
- Re: you will surely die By: samlcarr (05/10/2007 - 21:27)
- Re: you will surely die By: john (08/10/2007 - 21:37)
- you will surely die By: john doyle (05/10/2007 - 19:57)
- Re: Genesis 2-3 By: john doyle (03/10/2007 - 13:09)
- Re: Genesis 2-3 By: jhimm (02/10/2007 - 19:54)
- Genesis 2-3 By: john doyle (02/10/2007 - 16:15)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (28/09/2007 - 16:21)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (19/09/2007 - 23:34)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (21/09/2007 - 20:24)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: john doyle (22/09/2007 - 01:58)
- Polytheism or collaboration? By: samlcarr (25/09/2007 - 12:44)
- Garden in the world By: john doyle (25/09/2007 - 15:45)
- Polytheism or collaboration? By: samlcarr (25/09/2007 - 12:44)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: john doyle (22/09/2007 - 01:58)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (21/09/2007 - 20:24)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Spiritboi (01/04/2007 - 20:36)
- was it or was it not? By: samlcarr (02/04/2007 - 15:46)
- was Adam created immortal? By: john doyle (07/04/2007 - 08:54)
- Re: was Adam created immortal? By: Spiritboi (08/04/2007 - 00:57)
- was Adam created immortal? By: john doyle (07/04/2007 - 08:54)
- was it or was it not? By: samlcarr (02/04/2007 - 15:46)
- The promise of death By: samlcarr (30/03/2007 - 21:09)
- Re: The promise of death By: john doyle (31/03/2007 - 16:49)
- Assuming society By: samlcarr (01/04/2007 - 10:32)
- Re: Assuming society By: john doyle (01/04/2007 - 11:08)
- Assuming society By: samlcarr (01/04/2007 - 10:32)
- Re: The promise of death By: john doyle (31/03/2007 - 16:49)
- recreating myth By: samlcarr (25/02/2007 - 19:55)
- Re: recreating myth By: john doyle (26/02/2007 - 08:47)
- the same old story? By: samlcarr (26/02/2007 - 20:37)
- back to 2nd base By: samlcarr (26/03/2007 - 09:41)
- Re: back to 2nd base By: john doyle (28/03/2007 - 22:17)
- Re: back to 2nd base By: samlcarr (29/03/2007 - 20:12)
- Re: back to 2nd base By: john doyle (30/03/2007 - 09:43)
- God's own country By: samlcarr (30/03/2007 - 10:05)
- Re: back to 2nd base By: john doyle (30/03/2007 - 09:43)
- Re: back to 2nd base By: samlcarr (29/03/2007 - 20:12)
- Re: back to 2nd base By: john doyle (28/03/2007 - 22:17)
- back to 2nd base By: samlcarr (26/03/2007 - 09:41)
- the same old story? By: samlcarr (26/02/2007 - 20:37)
- Re: recreating myth By: john doyle (26/02/2007 - 08:47)
- flashback By: samlcarr (12/02/2007 - 01:15)
- One mankind or two? By: samlcarr (13/02/2007 - 01:27)
- Re: One mankind or two? By: john doyle (13/02/2007 - 23:51)
- Whither Job? By: samlcarr (14/02/2007 - 00:54)
- Re: Northern Kingdom and Southern Kingdom By: freespirit (18/02/2007 - 09:18)
- Whither Job? By: samlcarr (14/02/2007 - 00:54)
- Re: One mankind or two? By: john doyle (13/02/2007 - 23:51)
- One mankind or two? By: samlcarr (13/02/2007 - 01:27)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: gymbrall (02/02/2007 - 18:40)
- almost talmudic By: john doyle (02/02/2007 - 15:16)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (01/02/2007 - 20:02)
- monkey business By: john doyle (02/02/2007 - 11:01)
- Golly! By: peter wilkinson (02/02/2007 - 12:44)
- Re: Golly! By: samlcarr (02/02/2007 - 13:15)
- Golly! By: peter wilkinson (02/02/2007 - 12:44)
- monkey business By: john doyle (02/02/2007 - 11:01)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": By: freespirit (29/01/2007 - 07:32)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: danutz (31/01/2007 - 01:03)
- reading from inside the story By: john doyle (31/01/2007 - 21:08)
- Re: reading from inside the story By: peter wilkinson (01/02/2007 - 15:00)
- open possibilities By: john doyle (01/02/2007 - 15:36)
- Re: open possibilities By: Russ (02/02/2007 - 14:15)
- Creation, sin, death and evolution By: peter wilkinson (01/02/2007 - 17:28)
- open possibilities By: john doyle (01/02/2007 - 15:36)
- Re: reading from inside the story By: peter wilkinson (01/02/2007 - 15:00)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: freespirit (31/01/2007 - 07:23)
- reading from inside the story By: john doyle (31/01/2007 - 21:08)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: freespirit (30/01/2007 - 07:55)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (31/01/2007 - 00:13)
- swimming along nicely By: john doyle (29/01/2007 - 14:46)
- time and sequence By: samlcarr (29/01/2007 - 17:36)
- Not waving but drowning By: peter wilkinson (29/01/2007 - 17:16)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: peter wilkinson (29/01/2007 - 12:57)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (28/01/2007 - 20:34)
- Oscillating persectives in the Genesis 1 narrative By: john doyle (29/01/2007 - 11:33)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: dissident (28/01/2007 - 05:10)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (28/01/2007 - 08:58)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (28/01/2007 - 14:24)
- elohim speaks By: john doyle (28/01/2007 - 18:40)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (28/01/2007 - 14:24)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (28/01/2007 - 08:58)
- let them enjoy their soup By: john doyle (24/01/2007 - 07:24)
- Time for the next course? By: samlcarr (24/01/2007 - 08:44)
- Re: Time for the next course? By: Russ (25/01/2007 - 00:01)
- two short replies By: john doyle (25/01/2007 - 08:43)
- An alternative literal reading of Genesis 1 By: john doyle (26/01/2007 - 11:00)
- two short replies By: john doyle (25/01/2007 - 08:43)
- Re: Time for the next course? By: Russ (25/01/2007 - 00:01)
- Time for the next course? By: samlcarr (24/01/2007 - 08:44)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: peter wilkinson (23/01/2007 - 22:38)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: peter wilkinson (22/01/2007 - 14:52)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (22/01/2007 - 22:11)
- Welcome future mythic voyagers By: john doyle (23/01/2007 - 17:51)
- Re: Welcome future mythic voyagers By: samlcarr (23/01/2007 - 19:36)
- Welcome future mythic voyagers By: john doyle (23/01/2007 - 17:51)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (22/01/2007 - 22:11)
- weighty words By: john doyle (21/01/2007 - 19:17)
- biig mouthfulls By: samlcarr (22/01/2007 - 06:27)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (18/01/2007 - 23:28)
- higher to lower By: samlcarr (19/01/2007 - 16:40)
- Re: higher to lower By: john doyle (19/01/2007 - 17:09)
- Re: higher to lower By: samlcarr (19/01/2007 - 19:51)
- Re: higher to lower By: Russ (20/01/2007 - 09:57)
- Re: higher to lower By: samlcarr (21/01/2007 - 08:50)
- Re: higher to lower By: Russ (20/01/2007 - 09:57)
- Re: higher to lower By: samlcarr (19/01/2007 - 19:51)
- Re: higher to lower By: john doyle (19/01/2007 - 17:09)
- an alternative Biblical reality? By: john doyle (19/01/2007 - 16:01)
- higher to lower By: samlcarr (19/01/2007 - 16:40)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (13/01/2007 - 19:27)
- Genesis 1 - Any Possibilities? By: samlcarr (18/01/2007 - 04:01)
- Authorial Intent in the Creation Narrative By: john doyle (16/01/2007 - 12:53)
- 1+2= By: samlcarr (12/01/2007 - 18:40)
- theistic intuition By: john doyle (13/01/2007 - 16:27)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: peter wilkinson (09/01/2007 - 12:55)
- sources of truth about the Creator-God By: john doyle (11/01/2007 - 14:29)
- Re: sources of truth about the Creator-God By: peter wilkinson (12/01/2007 - 06:19)
- who is in the details? By: john doyle (12/01/2007 - 12:12)
- Re: who is in the details? By: peter wilkinson (12/01/2007 - 14:40)
- will the mists never part? By: john doyle (12/01/2007 - 16:20)
- Re: will the mists never part? By: peter wilkinson (12/01/2007 - 18:35)
- will the mists never part? By: john doyle (12/01/2007 - 16:20)
- Re: who is in the details? By: peter wilkinson (12/01/2007 - 14:40)
- who is in the details? By: john doyle (12/01/2007 - 12:12)
- Re: sources of truth about the Creator-God By: peter wilkinson (12/01/2007 - 06:19)
- sources of truth about the Creator-God By: john doyle (11/01/2007 - 14:29)
Re: reading from inside the story
I like the way you summarise and synthesise the arguments, John. But doesn’t your own summary position, that “God creates a conscious awareness of the material universe” hit the same buffers of conflict with the “book of science” as any other literal understanding of Genesis? Isn’t the creation of a conscious awareness of what happened at creation saying the same thing as a description of what happened at creation - as described in Genesis 1? The issue remains a creation, in the sequence in which it is described, as opposed to a naturalistic development of life over the aeons, from the simpler forms to the more complex, without external divine assistance.
I personally have more problems with the latter than I do with the former, as explanations of the origins of life. I don’t find that a purely metaphoric understanding of Genesis 1 resolves anything. Somewhere, there remains the question: where did the universe come from, and how reasonable is it to suppose that a divine being had any role in its formation? Mine is a ‘faith’ understanding, but then all understandings rest on a considerable element of faith, just as they all appeal to evidence on which to support their conclusions.
I have therefore provided another view, which is not quite included in your summary, that extraordinary supernatural forces were at work in the initial literal six day creation, but that these were followed by naturalistic developments. This does, of course, have its problems - such as conflict with the evolutionary view that man appeared at the end of an evolutionary process. But it does reconcile other pieces of evidence which stand at variance with the evolutionary view, such as the discovery of creatures which were supposed to have died out millions of years ago, according to the fossil record, at the beginnings of the evolutionary chain - such as the coelacanth, and that peculiar shark creature looking like an eel with its mouth open, which we all saw captured on camera several days ago, a creature supposed to have died out 20 million years ago. In other words, what business do such creatures have being around today, when they should have evolved into something else - like all other well behaved members of species?
I think, too, when we are talking about events which by modern science’s reckoning happened some 4.5 billion years ago, naturalistic science is at the very limits of what can be asserted with any confidence. Science of all kinds, physical and natural, has been shown up as spectacularly wrong in the last hundred years, and this despite the use of ‘science’ to disprove the so-called supertsitions of Christian tradition.