who is in the details?
Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: john doyle (120 replies) 9 January, 2007 - 11:50
- Eden pushed back a few thousand years? By: samlcarr (09/02/2008 - 12:41)
- Re: Eden pushed back a few thousand years? By: john doyle (10/02/2008 - 17:56)
- Re: Eden pushed back a few thousand years? By: samlcarr (17/02/2008 - 13:03)
- Re: Eden pushed back a few thousand years? By: john doyle (10/02/2008 - 17:56)
- Pandora's Box of deadly utopias By: samlcarr (24/12/2007 - 10:36)
- Re: Pandora's Box of deadly utopias By: john doyle (25/12/2007 - 02:25)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (04/12/2007 - 20:47)
- To Dominate and to Subjugate? By: samlcarr (13/11/2007 - 15:48)
- Re: To Dominate and to Subjugate? By: john doyle (17/11/2007 - 00:26)
- Re: To Dominate and to Subjugate? By: samlcarr (25/11/2007 - 11:39)
- Option 6: One has to break the egg... By: samlcarr (27/11/2007 - 13:29)
- Re: To Dominate and to Subjugate? By: samlcarr (25/11/2007 - 11:39)
- Re: To Dominate and to Subjugate? By: john doyle (17/11/2007 - 00:26)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: buddy (10/11/2007 - 23:17)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (11/11/2007 - 16:51)
- Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 - Contrasting Natures of God By: samlcarr (22/10/2007 - 14:49)
- Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 - Contrasting Natures of God By: john doyle (23/10/2007 - 18:58)
- Re: Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 - Contrasting Natures of God By: samlcarr (01/11/2007 - 22:13)
- Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 - Contrasting Natures of God By: john doyle (23/10/2007 - 18:58)
- Gender, sexuality and all that stuff. By: samlcarr (07/10/2007 - 20:47)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (27/09/2007 - 16:29)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (28/09/2007 - 16:21)
- Genesis 2-3 By: john doyle (02/10/2007 - 16:15)
- Re: Genesis 2-3 By: jhimm (02/10/2007 - 19:54)
- Re: Genesis 2-3 By: john doyle (03/10/2007 - 13:09)
- you will surely die By: john doyle (05/10/2007 - 19:57)
- Re: you will surely die By: john (08/10/2007 - 21:37)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (09/10/2007 - 23:21)
- Re: you will surely die By: samlcarr (10/10/2007 - 07:43)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (12/10/2007 - 04:29)
- Re: you will surely die By: enarchay (12/10/2007 - 23:32)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (13/10/2007 - 04:08)
- Re: you will surely die By: samlcarr (13/10/2007 - 09:00)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (13/10/2007 - 04:08)
- Re: you will surely die By: john (12/10/2007 - 10:11)
- Re: you will surely die By: enarchay (12/10/2007 - 23:38)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (12/10/2007 - 19:58)
- Re: you will surely die By: enarchay (13/10/2007 - 10:13)
- Re: you will surely die By: samlcarr (12/10/2007 - 08:26)
- Re: you will surely die By: enarchay (12/10/2007 - 23:32)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (12/10/2007 - 04:29)
- Re: you will surely die By: enarchay (10/10/2007 - 07:36)
- Re: you will surely die By: samlcarr (10/10/2007 - 07:43)
- Re: you will surely die By: john doyle (09/10/2007 - 23:21)
- Re: you will surely die By: enarchay (06/10/2007 - 02:02)
- Re: you will surely die By: samlcarr (05/10/2007 - 21:27)
- Re: you will surely die By: john (08/10/2007 - 21:37)
- you will surely die By: john doyle (05/10/2007 - 19:57)
- Re: Genesis 2-3 By: john doyle (03/10/2007 - 13:09)
- Re: Genesis 2-3 By: jhimm (02/10/2007 - 19:54)
- Genesis 2-3 By: john doyle (02/10/2007 - 16:15)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (28/09/2007 - 16:21)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (19/09/2007 - 23:34)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (21/09/2007 - 20:24)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: john doyle (22/09/2007 - 01:58)
- Polytheism or collaboration? By: samlcarr (25/09/2007 - 12:44)
- Garden in the world By: john doyle (25/09/2007 - 15:45)
- Polytheism or collaboration? By: samlcarr (25/09/2007 - 12:44)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: john doyle (22/09/2007 - 01:58)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (21/09/2007 - 20:24)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Spiritboi (01/04/2007 - 20:36)
- was it or was it not? By: samlcarr (02/04/2007 - 15:46)
- was Adam created immortal? By: john doyle (07/04/2007 - 08:54)
- Re: was Adam created immortal? By: Spiritboi (08/04/2007 - 00:57)
- was Adam created immortal? By: john doyle (07/04/2007 - 08:54)
- was it or was it not? By: samlcarr (02/04/2007 - 15:46)
- The promise of death By: samlcarr (30/03/2007 - 21:09)
- Re: The promise of death By: john doyle (31/03/2007 - 16:49)
- Assuming society By: samlcarr (01/04/2007 - 10:32)
- Re: Assuming society By: john doyle (01/04/2007 - 11:08)
- Assuming society By: samlcarr (01/04/2007 - 10:32)
- Re: The promise of death By: john doyle (31/03/2007 - 16:49)
- recreating myth By: samlcarr (25/02/2007 - 19:55)
- Re: recreating myth By: john doyle (26/02/2007 - 08:47)
- the same old story? By: samlcarr (26/02/2007 - 20:37)
- back to 2nd base By: samlcarr (26/03/2007 - 09:41)
- Re: back to 2nd base By: john doyle (28/03/2007 - 22:17)
- Re: back to 2nd base By: samlcarr (29/03/2007 - 20:12)
- Re: back to 2nd base By: john doyle (30/03/2007 - 09:43)
- God's own country By: samlcarr (30/03/2007 - 10:05)
- Re: back to 2nd base By: john doyle (30/03/2007 - 09:43)
- Re: back to 2nd base By: samlcarr (29/03/2007 - 20:12)
- Re: back to 2nd base By: john doyle (28/03/2007 - 22:17)
- back to 2nd base By: samlcarr (26/03/2007 - 09:41)
- the same old story? By: samlcarr (26/02/2007 - 20:37)
- Re: recreating myth By: john doyle (26/02/2007 - 08:47)
- flashback By: samlcarr (12/02/2007 - 01:15)
- One mankind or two? By: samlcarr (13/02/2007 - 01:27)
- Re: One mankind or two? By: john doyle (13/02/2007 - 23:51)
- Whither Job? By: samlcarr (14/02/2007 - 00:54)
- Re: Northern Kingdom and Southern Kingdom By: freespirit (18/02/2007 - 09:18)
- Whither Job? By: samlcarr (14/02/2007 - 00:54)
- Re: One mankind or two? By: john doyle (13/02/2007 - 23:51)
- One mankind or two? By: samlcarr (13/02/2007 - 01:27)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: gymbrall (02/02/2007 - 18:40)
- almost talmudic By: john doyle (02/02/2007 - 15:16)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (01/02/2007 - 20:02)
- monkey business By: john doyle (02/02/2007 - 11:01)
- Golly! By: peter wilkinson (02/02/2007 - 12:44)
- Re: Golly! By: samlcarr (02/02/2007 - 13:15)
- Golly! By: peter wilkinson (02/02/2007 - 12:44)
- monkey business By: john doyle (02/02/2007 - 11:01)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": By: freespirit (29/01/2007 - 07:32)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: danutz (31/01/2007 - 01:03)
- reading from inside the story By: john doyle (31/01/2007 - 21:08)
- Re: reading from inside the story By: peter wilkinson (01/02/2007 - 15:00)
- open possibilities By: john doyle (01/02/2007 - 15:36)
- Re: open possibilities By: Russ (02/02/2007 - 14:15)
- Creation, sin, death and evolution By: peter wilkinson (01/02/2007 - 17:28)
- open possibilities By: john doyle (01/02/2007 - 15:36)
- Re: reading from inside the story By: peter wilkinson (01/02/2007 - 15:00)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: freespirit (31/01/2007 - 07:23)
- reading from inside the story By: john doyle (31/01/2007 - 21:08)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: freespirit (30/01/2007 - 07:55)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (31/01/2007 - 00:13)
- swimming along nicely By: john doyle (29/01/2007 - 14:46)
- time and sequence By: samlcarr (29/01/2007 - 17:36)
- Not waving but drowning By: peter wilkinson (29/01/2007 - 17:16)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: peter wilkinson (29/01/2007 - 12:57)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (28/01/2007 - 20:34)
- Oscillating persectives in the Genesis 1 narrative By: john doyle (29/01/2007 - 11:33)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: dissident (28/01/2007 - 05:10)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (28/01/2007 - 08:58)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (28/01/2007 - 14:24)
- elohim speaks By: john doyle (28/01/2007 - 18:40)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (28/01/2007 - 14:24)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: samlcarr (28/01/2007 - 08:58)
- let them enjoy their soup By: john doyle (24/01/2007 - 07:24)
- Time for the next course? By: samlcarr (24/01/2007 - 08:44)
- Re: Time for the next course? By: Russ (25/01/2007 - 00:01)
- two short replies By: john doyle (25/01/2007 - 08:43)
- An alternative literal reading of Genesis 1 By: john doyle (26/01/2007 - 11:00)
- two short replies By: john doyle (25/01/2007 - 08:43)
- Re: Time for the next course? By: Russ (25/01/2007 - 00:01)
- Time for the next course? By: samlcarr (24/01/2007 - 08:44)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: peter wilkinson (23/01/2007 - 22:38)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: peter wilkinson (22/01/2007 - 14:52)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (22/01/2007 - 22:11)
- Welcome future mythic voyagers By: john doyle (23/01/2007 - 17:51)
- Re: Welcome future mythic voyagers By: samlcarr (23/01/2007 - 19:36)
- Welcome future mythic voyagers By: john doyle (23/01/2007 - 17:51)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (22/01/2007 - 22:11)
- weighty words By: john doyle (21/01/2007 - 19:17)
- biig mouthfulls By: samlcarr (22/01/2007 - 06:27)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (18/01/2007 - 23:28)
- higher to lower By: samlcarr (19/01/2007 - 16:40)
- Re: higher to lower By: john doyle (19/01/2007 - 17:09)
- Re: higher to lower By: samlcarr (19/01/2007 - 19:51)
- Re: higher to lower By: Russ (20/01/2007 - 09:57)
- Re: higher to lower By: samlcarr (21/01/2007 - 08:50)
- Re: higher to lower By: Russ (20/01/2007 - 09:57)
- Re: higher to lower By: samlcarr (19/01/2007 - 19:51)
- Re: higher to lower By: john doyle (19/01/2007 - 17:09)
- an alternative Biblical reality? By: john doyle (19/01/2007 - 16:01)
- higher to lower By: samlcarr (19/01/2007 - 16:40)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: Russ (13/01/2007 - 19:27)
- Genesis 1 - Any Possibilities? By: samlcarr (18/01/2007 - 04:01)
- Authorial Intent in the Creation Narrative By: john doyle (16/01/2007 - 12:53)
- 1+2= By: samlcarr (12/01/2007 - 18:40)
- theistic intuition By: john doyle (13/01/2007 - 16:27)
- Re: Genesis 1 as "True Myth": 5 Possibilities By: peter wilkinson (09/01/2007 - 12:55)
- sources of truth about the Creator-God By: john doyle (11/01/2007 - 14:29)
- Re: sources of truth about the Creator-God By: peter wilkinson (12/01/2007 - 06:19)
- who is in the details? By: john doyle (12/01/2007 - 12:12)
- Re: who is in the details? By: peter wilkinson (12/01/2007 - 14:40)
- will the mists never part? By: john doyle (12/01/2007 - 16:20)
- Re: will the mists never part? By: peter wilkinson (12/01/2007 - 18:35)
- will the mists never part? By: john doyle (12/01/2007 - 16:20)
- Re: who is in the details? By: peter wilkinson (12/01/2007 - 14:40)
- who is in the details? By: john doyle (12/01/2007 - 12:12)
- Re: sources of truth about the Creator-God By: peter wilkinson (12/01/2007 - 06:19)
- sources of truth about the Creator-God By: john doyle (11/01/2007 - 14:29)
who is in the details?
When you, Peter, read the Genesis creation narrative, you’re able to recognize its correspondence with what you’ve already intuited as true. There are, of course, others who claim that the proposition “God created the universe” is not intuitively obvious. Is the God intuition granted only to some, or do the others deny or lose this intuition? The New Testament makes a case for both positions. It seems like an honest Christian response to the atheistic materialists: either you haven’t been given eyes to see, or else you’ve become futile in your speculations and so your foolish heart has been darkened.
As someone who by intuition and faith already believes in God, you find no evidence to disprove this belief – just as someone who doesn’t believe in God finds no evidence to disprove his disbelief. Fine.
Now we move beyond the broad assertion of intuited truth – God created the universe in an orderly way – to the details. Genesis 1 asserts that God created the trees before the sun and that He finished creating everything in six days. Do these Biblical details resonate with your intuition about the truth? Or, because you have faith that the Creator-God is responsible for the Biblical text, do you believe that the Biblical details are true even if they seem contrary to reason, to evidence, perhaps even to intuition? Based on your comments you seem to endorse one or both of these two positions. You have no need for True Myth, because you believe it’s possible to read Genesis 1 as a literally true historical narrative describing the origin of the universe.
Unbelievers and religious liberals are more likely to assert that the Genesis 1 details are “mythical” in the usual use of the word: primitive ideas that served a purpose at the time but that just aren’t true. Again, no need for True Myth.
There are some among the emerging post-evangelical community who wish to affirm the general truth of God as creator without having to defend the literal truth of the Genesis details either to unbelievers or to themselves. Decisions must still be made about why the details appear in the story, what they signify, and how to evaluate their truth status. Here’s where the True Myth explanation is often invoked. The purpose behind my post is to explore which versions of the True Myth idea can best achieve the desired ends.
The Reformed tradition of Biblical exegesis has been criticized by the emerging community for overemphasizing timeless propositional truths at the expense of historical narrative truths. The Biblical creation story is written as a historical narrative, and it has traditionally been read that way by exegetes schooled in the Reformed tradition. It seems to me that the True Myth approach to the creation narrative is an attempt to de-historicize the text, transforming it into a set of general propositions (God’s creatorliness, the goodness of the material world, and so on) while ignoring timelines, sequences, and other distinctly narrative features of the text. Frankly, True Myth strikes me as both disingenuous and untenable, but I wanted to give the idea a fair shake. I get the sense that you, Peter, agree. This agreement would return us to the longstanding dichotomous question, the kind of question that perhaps marks us indelibly as ham-handed modernists with no sense of literary subtlety: is the Genesis creation text a true historical narrative, or is it a false one?