Hello NinjaHound,

I have read all the Posts and Comments on this subject to date and would like to add some thoughts to them which I’ve had, over a number of years.

I more or less stumbled upon various texts in the O.T. and kept notes on them over a period, adding to them when I found something new.

Using reputable Hebrew Scholars’ statements concerning those texts, here’s my present understanding of this ‘event’ . By the way, I have never been able to convince a single Christian person of the truth of the following… except my wife.. but then she feels that if I say something three times, then it must be true. Likewise, since I’m simply a retired Electronics Engineer, it will probably be said,… Well, what would he know?

So, I will just give you a very bare outline. (Authorized Version used throughout). If we look at Genesis Ch. 16, verse 2 … Go in unto my maid.. verse 4, he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived.

Note : In Ch. 15 verse 4, .. the word of the Lord came unto him.. the wording is very specific ; there is no ‘in’ because ‘in unto’ suggests intercourse.

In verse 10, there is the amazing statement of the angel… I will multiply your seed exceedingly . ( An angel?)

Hebrew scholars call this a manifestation of G-d in the form of a Theophany.

Now, this is saying that the Angel of God is a manifestation of God and can multiply seed. How about starting off seed?

In the case of Sarah, the Lord promises her a son in old age; and in Ch. 21, verse 1… the Lord visited her and he did unto her as he had spoken. It doesn’t seem that poor old Abraham was responsible for the birth of Isaac !

Now, we may well wonder if He literally came; well, we will see later that that could well have been the case. Suffice it to say that e.g. in Ch. 24 verse 30, it says ” came unto the man ” and the man ” came into the house “. The distinction of entering a house and entering a woman is clear, and we will validate now, the phrase ” came in unto her “. This is always followed by stating that very soon conception took place.

However, more examples are in Ch 29, verse 23, ” Jacob went in unto her. ” (Leah). Verse 30, same thing, this time with Rachel.

Ch. 30 verses 2 & 3; Ch. 38 verse 9, ( Onan’s story ).

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In Ch. 38 verse 16 we have Judah saying to Tamar ; “let me come in unto thee ” ; she replies, “What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?”. In verse 18 he came in unto her.

I realise this might be quite wearisome looking at all those examples.. for what purpose ? Well, it seems angels weren’t above doing a thing or two.

Samson was born through the visit of an angel to Manoah’s wife in Judges Ch. 13. Now, she says to her husband… ” a man of God came unto me with the countenance of an angel of God “. In verse 9 there is a euphemism, like the one above ” and the Lord did unto Sarah….” ; in this case it’s ” and the angel came unto her as she sat in the field…. and her husband was not with her.

We don’t need much imagination to wonder what happened for in the very next verse she hastens to show her husband …to show her husband what? presumably what the ‘angel’ had done to her. By the way the angel’s name is SECRET which, (in the margin), is ‘Wonderful’, which is Jesus’ name… ( and his name shall be called Wonderful ).

Where is all this leading to ? Well, to the reason I believe in the Virgin Birth. It’s not parthenogenesis; nor a fable ; because in Luke Ch. 1 an angel of the Lord appears to Zacharias called Gabriel…. in verse 28 is written…. and remember Luke was a Doctor and would probably have used more medical nomenclature than most… and would be present especially at a birth…. in verse 28 Luke says “ and the angel came in unto her ”. Now bear in mind the angel’s name was Gabriel, the one presenting himself also to Zacharias, and apparently also to Manaoh’s wife..for she calls him the man of God, which in Hebrew, correct me if I’m wrong, is Gibor El…. namely Gabriel.

It would appear to my simple understanding that in some way the angel has to be present for conception to take place…Gabriel says : (this is disputed ) ..not, “thou shalt conceive” , but “thou art conceiving already”

This can be shown by verse 36, Gabriel says of Elizabeth, ” she also hath conceived ” (past tense). the ‘also’ definitely implying that Mary hath conceived. ( past tense). The overshadowing of Mary by the Holy Ghost somehow happens by the angel of God being there… like Sarah’s conception when the ’ Lord ’ visited her…. hence possibly the mysterious meaning of the word ’ visitation ’.

Weren’t you overshadowed by the Holy Ghost when you were ’ born again ‘ ?

Various Translations have tried to edit out the uncomfortable phrase ” came in unto her “, by suggesting Gabriel came into her house, but in the A.V. it is there, and Luke could easily have used some other words as we know…but ” came in unto her ” is a stock Hebrew expression, littered all over early Chapters of Genesis.

There is more, but this screed is way too long already.