Hi Andrew,

I have just been reading, with great interest, your discussion with KJ1.  If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion:  It appears to me that you should think more in terms of "covenant" rather than "historical" and your adversary should think more in terms of "audience relevance," i.e. every Scripture which he is quoting from was written in the first century and was relevant to them and them alone as far as eschatology goes.

KJ is exactly right when he (muted sarcasm) states, "(as the church apparently completely failed to realize that “the days of the Son of Man,” which they’ve been longing to see for at least 1500 years, had already arrived)."  For whatever the reason, that is exactly what happened.

Your statement, "There is no reason to expect the vindication of the martyrs to have been a visible event. In the ‘first resurrection’ those who die because of their testimony to Jesus simply come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years (Rev. 20:4); they will accompany him at his ‘coming’, but this is not a coming to earth, it is a coming to the throne of God to receive a kingdom."  really got my attention.

The reason that it "really got my attention" is because it is so very close to my own understanding of these things.  I would urge you to drop the use of the word "coming" and in its place insert "presence" which is what "parousia" really means - then your argument takes on even more weight.  I. e. It is Jesus Christ’s resurrected "presence" on the throne of His glory (i.e. the throne of David) where He was joined by the resurrected of 1Cor 15:23 (cf. Rev 4; 1Thess 4:16-17; 1Cor 15:51-53) in His heavenly kingdom. 

Thus, your statement quoted above would now read:  The resurrected ones will accompany him at his ‘presence’, but this is not a coming to earth, it is a presence in the throne of His glory (Matt 25:31, David’s throne) to receive his heavenly kingdom (Dan 7:14, cf. 2Tim 4:18, et al.) which shall reign over the earth (Rev  5:10) from the "thrones" (Rev 20:4) within His heavenly kingdom.

[KJ]Or do you believe that the millennial reign of Rev.20 fills the gap between “His coming” and “the end” in 15:23?

[A] Yes, I think so, though it’s a tricky case to make exegetically.

Maybe not so "tricky" as you may suppose.  If you are willing, I would like to show you what I have written on that subject.

KJ1 wrote, "Its funny, it would seem you and I agree on a lot of how the prophecies of the OT relate to Revelation and the kingdom coming - we just disagree over the little issue of whether it has happened.  That and I am still baffled by your doctrine of secret resurrection."

KJ1 would understand what you are saying if he would only apply the concept of "audience relevance" to his reading of Scripture.  You and I agree that "it has happened" because we see those Scriptures as being "audience relevant" to that first century generation.

Your last post (8 Feb ‘06 11:17am) dealing with Hebrews was right on.  It could (should) be said that Hebrews is the unveiling/revealing of Jesus as "High Priest" and that Revelation is the unveiling/revealing of Jesus as "King of kings and Lord of lords."

In the your discussion with KJ1, you wrote, "According to the elaborate analogy that is being developed Jesus becomes a high priest at the resurrection…As the resurrected one he is seated at the right hand of God;"

While you ostensibly did not, many have taken this "at the right hand of God" motif to be "reganal language" that means that Jesus is reigning as King from the ascension onward.  However, just the opposite is true.  Everyone in the UK should easily understand that if a prince or priest is seated at the right hand of the king, it is the king who is reigning not the prince in waiting or the priest at his right hand.  Thus, the statement "at the right hand of God" clearly states that God is still reigning and Jesus, the High Priest (also Prince in waiting, Acts 3:15, 5:31, cf. Heb 2:10,12:2 ;  Rev 1:5), seated at God’s right hand is not yet reigning.

Jesus does not begin to reign until His Parousia in the throne of His glory (Matt 25:31).  At that same time "those that are Christ’s" at His Parousia are resurrected (1Cor 15:23; cf. 1Cor 15:51-51; 1Thess 4:16-17, and Rev 20:4 ) and as you have stated, "they will accompany him at his ‘coming’, but this is not a coming to earth, it is a coming to the throne of God to receive a kingdom."

Now for a few comments about the High Priest’s work.  You wrote:

"This second entry into the sanctuary corresponds to the coming of the Son of man to receive a kingdom, to the vindication of the suffering saints. It emphatically does not refer to a second coming of Christ to earth. That completely misconstrues how the writer uses the high priest typology."

While I agree with what you are saying above, there is more to it than that.  The high priest typology that the writer of Hebrews is using comes from Lev 16.  There the high priest was to sacrifice a bullock for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering (16:3).  The bullock was to be offered as an atonement for the high priest and for his house (16:6). Thus Jesus offered the bullock (Himself) for the high priest (Himself) and His house (the house of Judah).

Next the high priest was to set aside two lambs - cast lots on the lambs -one for the LORD and one for the scapegoat (16:8; this we find Jesus doing in Matt 25:33)

Then the high priest was to take the lamb designated by lot "for the LORD" and offer "him for a sin offering" but the lamb, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD to make   an atonement with him and let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

After the bullock the high priest was to take the blood of the sacrifice into the holy of holies and "sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat…seven times."  When this was accomplished the high priest left the holy of holies and appeared before the people.  Jesus did this between the events we find recorded in John 20:17-19.  After Jesus appear to Mary and ordered her not to touch Him, he then ascended into the holy of holies before the father in heaven and placed the blood "upon the mercy seat" then in verse 19 he reappeared to the waiting disciples and allowed them to touch Him because He had now "ascended to the Father."

After the high priest reappeared the first time to the waiting people, he then took the lamb that had earlier been selected "for the LORD"  and offered it as a sin offering for the people.  He then took the blood of the sin offering into the holy of holies and "sprinkled it upon the mercy seat as well 16:15-19).

When everything in 16:15-19 was accomplished the high reappear again from the holy of holies to the waiting people, then he took the lamb that had been selected as the scapegoat; "placed both of his hands on his head and confessed over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel."  We find Jesus doing this in Matt 23 and Matt 25:41-46a.

I trust that by now you are seeing the picture.  In the first century, all of this typology was being fulfilled.  Jesus became the High Priest by His suffering and resurrection.  He was the fulfillment of the "bullock offering" for Himself and his house - the Jews, and the role of the High Priest.  However, contrary to Christian tradition, it appears to me, that He was not the "sin offering" or the "scape goat" of the Levitical typology of sacrifice for atonement

The Jews and the Christian martyrs fulfilled these roles by being the selected lambs (i.e. sheep and goats).  They were selected by the High Priest (Jesus) and the martyrs were offered as the "sin offering" and the apostate Jews became the scapegoat and were cast into the wilderness/darkness were there is gnashing of teeth (Matt 25:30) . 

Ostensibly this suffering of the martyrs is what Paul referenced in Col 1:24 and Peter in 1Peter 4:13, 5:10 (cf. Romans 8:17; 2Cor 1:7; 2Thess 1:5; 2Tim 2:12, 3:12; 1Pet 2:21, 3:14; et al.)  as "filling up" the sufferings of  Christ for the congregation.

In the NT, especially in Hebrews and Revelation we see this typology being fulfilled.  In Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:4 we see the martyrs at the altar and in victory upon the resurrection.  All this typology has been fulfilled.

Enough for now.