Re: The Atonement
The Atonement By: joeblow (58 replies) 15 November, 2004 - 14:01
- Re: The Atonement By: michwell (13/12/2007 - 01:08)
- Re: The Atonement By: jimjiminyjim (13/12/2007 - 19:13)
- Re: The Atonement By: (13/04/2006 - 20:58)
- Re: The Atonement - by Sharyn By: wray (12/12/2007 - 23:23)
- [Comment moved to new thread] By: (26/01/2006 - 06:57)
- Re: The Atonement By: (25/01/2006 - 04:34)
- Penal Substitution By: peter wilkinson (14/01/2005 - 20:46)
- Basic Elements of the Penal Substitution Model of the Atonement By: Victor_Martyr (13/01/2005 - 23:50)
- On justice getting in the way By: Khaareji (15/01/2005 - 05:28)
- "Penal substitution" stretches an analogy too far By: Chris (04/01/2005 - 21:34)
- The Law By: Qry (14/01/2005 - 08:30)
- Confused By: TheLogo (02/12/2004 - 06:59)
- Hebrews and the Penal Substitution By: Qry (31/12/2004 - 12:51)
- Re 1 and 2: By: ga_ge (31/12/2004 - 20:21)
- How does it work? By: Qry (01/01/2005 - 12:33)
- Hi Qry and HNY2U ALL! By: ga_ge (02/01/2005 - 14:58)
- Re: "Why can't this remain Mystery?" By: Qry (02/01/2005 - 16:58)
- By 'Mystery' I mean... By: ga_ge (03/01/2005 - 21:40)
- Re: "Why can't this remain Mystery?" By: Qry (02/01/2005 - 16:58)
- Hi Qry and HNY2U ALL! By: ga_ge (02/01/2005 - 14:58)
- Sacrificial System By: TheLogo (01/01/2005 - 01:50)
- How does it work? By: Qry (01/01/2005 - 12:33)
- Re 1 and 2: By: ga_ge (31/12/2004 - 20:21)
- Don't be :o) By: ga_ge (17/12/2004 - 17:24)
- Hebrews and the Penal Substitution By: Qry (31/12/2004 - 12:51)
- Atonement discussion forum topics By: joeblow (29/11/2004 - 18:03)
- Steve Chalke and cosmic child abuse By: andrew (29/11/2004 - 11:40)
- Steve Chalke's response to the EA By: joeblow (29/11/2004 - 18:08)
- timely... By: ga_ge (29/11/2004 - 17:14)
- The Parable of the Punitive Father By: Victor_Martyr (23/11/2004 - 22:49)
- Very Colorful but Perhaps not Precise By: Qry (01/01/2005 - 20:12)
- A Problem Parable By: ericboehmer (23/11/2004 - 23:28)
- The Parable of the Punitive Father By: Victor_Martyr (13/01/2005 - 15:13)
- I respectfully disagree... By: Matt (28/11/2004 - 19:12)
- First things first...? By: joeblow (22/11/2004 - 13:42)
- Re: First things first...? By: (20/12/2005 - 18:42)
- Re: First things first...? By: Qry (20/12/2005 - 22:47)
- Second things second... By: (22/11/2004 - 14:45)
- Extra category? By: Matt (22/11/2004 - 15:19)
- Yup! By: joeblow (22/11/2004 - 16:15)
- My suggestion would be that w By: andrew (22/11/2004 - 16:41)
- Good plan, Stan/Andrew By: joeblow (22/11/2004 - 17:47)
- My suggestion would be that w By: andrew (22/11/2004 - 16:41)
- Yup! By: joeblow (22/11/2004 - 16:15)
- Extra category? By: Matt (22/11/2004 - 15:19)
- Re: First things first...? By: (20/12/2005 - 18:42)
- Cosmic Child Abuse/Atonement By: (20/11/2004 - 04:10)
- ...And Justice for All? By: ga_ge (20/11/2004 - 20:15)
- Justice? Or slander against God? By: ross (20/11/2004 - 21:44)
- But we preach Christ crucified...(right?) By: Alario (21/11/2004 - 05:47)
- Good God, Charlie Brown! By: ga_ge (21/11/2004 - 15:58)
- A change in law is a change in constitution By: ga_ge (21/11/2004 - 02:24)
- One thing that disturbs me in By: ericboehmer (21/11/2004 - 00:02)
- But we preach Christ crucified...(right?) By: Alario (21/11/2004 - 05:47)
- Justice? Or slander against God? By: ross (20/11/2004 - 21:44)
- ...And Justice for All? By: ga_ge (20/11/2004 - 20:15)
- How to talk about the atonement By: (15/11/2004 - 16:50)
- Historically contingent analogies By: groundshero (22/11/2004 - 04:30)
- to joeblow By: ga_ge (15/11/2004 - 22:17)
- picking on penal substitution... By: joeblow (16/11/2004 - 13:48)
- Toning By: ga_ge (16/11/2004 - 16:32)
- Atonement By: Ken Cameron (07/07/2006 - 21:02)
- What kind of God needs a bribe to love? By: Matt (19/11/2004 - 14:17)
- National forgiveness and Yhwh's justice By: ericboehmer (20/11/2004 - 01:48)
- re: National forgiveness and Yhwh's justice By: davedyk (11/01/2005 - 01:22)
- freedom and responsibility By: ericboehmer (11/01/2005 - 07:03)
- National forgiveness I get; justice I don't By: Matt (22/11/2004 - 02:32)
- re: National forgiveness and Yhwh's justice By: davedyk (11/01/2005 - 01:22)
- National forgiveness and Yhwh's justice By: ericboehmer (20/11/2004 - 01:48)
- Toning By: ga_ge (16/11/2004 - 16:32)
- picking on penal substitution... By: joeblow (16/11/2004 - 13:48)
- 2 COR 5: 19 a) By: ga_ge (15/11/2004 - 15:05)
- 2 Co. 5:19 By: Qry (28/12/2004 - 22:33)
- Specifically... By: ga_ge (30/12/2004 - 23:49)
- 2 Co. 5:19 By: Qry (28/12/2004 - 22:33)
Re: The Atonement
Hi folks out there,
I am really impressed by the huge amount of deep theological insights I read in this blog. I actually needed two days to read it all, think about it and to figure out what my own position concerning atonement is. Is God a child abuser? Tough words, but when I understood Blowjoe right, it is just the expression of an already pervert development to explain the death of Christ, which has settled in our churches during the last 500 years.
The main question behind all these technical terms is, when I got you right, how does atonement work? This is a crucial and also hard question, because already the word atonement implies so many images, which we developed in about 2000 years church history. Can we understand the technical term “atonement” right, when the English term has already another connotation than the term “Sühne” in German, which Luther used? Is it the same like “hilasterion” in Greek? Do all these words actually relay on the Hebrew “kipper”?
Wait a minute. I wonder if we shouldn’t start on the opposite end: What happened with “kipper”? What does the New Testament imply when Paul and Hebrews write about the “hilasterion” and think about “kipper”? Are we really able to think Atonement Jewish? Because this Jewish setting is the setting for the gospel when it proclaims, “that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:19).
Isn’t it interesting that Paul used in this verse NOT the term “hilasterion” but “katallage”, which is wonderful translated into English by using “reconciliation” instead of “atonement” – in German both is the same word! So, let’s look deeper into the Hebrew text to figure out, how atonement in Israel worked before Christ appeared.
I guess we should spend some time on the Hebrew term “kipper”: Where is it used? How is it used? Who or what benefits form it? Does “kipper” always forgive sins? Another question I have is: How is sin distinguished from being unclean?
Ok, enough questions for now. In my eyes it is wrong to neglect the Old Testament perspective, because atonement was the centre of the Jewish belief long before Christ became atonement for us.
I wish you all a good time with Leviticus and Hebrew, I know it is hard stuff, but finally good stuff,
Take care,
Carsten.