Re: First things first...?
The Atonement By: joeblow (58 replies) 15 November, 2004 - 14:01
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- Re: The Atonement By: jimjiminyjim (13/12/2007 - 19:13)
- Re: The Atonement By: (13/04/2006 - 20:58)
- Re: The Atonement - by Sharyn By: wray (12/12/2007 - 23:23)
- [Comment moved to new thread] By: (26/01/2006 - 06:57)
- Re: The Atonement By: (25/01/2006 - 04:34)
- Penal Substitution By: peter wilkinson (14/01/2005 - 20:46)
- Basic Elements of the Penal Substitution Model of the Atonement By: Victor_Martyr (13/01/2005 - 23:50)
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- The Law By: Qry (14/01/2005 - 08:30)
- Confused By: TheLogo (02/12/2004 - 06:59)
- Hebrews and the Penal Substitution By: Qry (31/12/2004 - 12:51)
- Re 1 and 2: By: ga_ge (31/12/2004 - 20:21)
- How does it work? By: Qry (01/01/2005 - 12:33)
- Hi Qry and HNY2U ALL! By: ga_ge (02/01/2005 - 14:58)
- Re: "Why can't this remain Mystery?" By: Qry (02/01/2005 - 16:58)
- By 'Mystery' I mean... By: ga_ge (03/01/2005 - 21:40)
- Re: "Why can't this remain Mystery?" By: Qry (02/01/2005 - 16:58)
- Hi Qry and HNY2U ALL! By: ga_ge (02/01/2005 - 14:58)
- Sacrificial System By: TheLogo (01/01/2005 - 01:50)
- How does it work? By: Qry (01/01/2005 - 12:33)
- Re 1 and 2: By: ga_ge (31/12/2004 - 20:21)
- Don't be :o) By: ga_ge (17/12/2004 - 17:24)
- Hebrews and the Penal Substitution By: Qry (31/12/2004 - 12:51)
- Atonement discussion forum topics By: joeblow (29/11/2004 - 18:03)
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- Steve Chalke's response to the EA By: joeblow (29/11/2004 - 18:08)
- timely... By: ga_ge (29/11/2004 - 17:14)
- The Parable of the Punitive Father By: Victor_Martyr (23/11/2004 - 22:49)
- Very Colorful but Perhaps not Precise By: Qry (01/01/2005 - 20:12)
- A Problem Parable By: ericboehmer (23/11/2004 - 23:28)
- The Parable of the Punitive Father By: Victor_Martyr (13/01/2005 - 15:13)
- I respectfully disagree... By: Matt (28/11/2004 - 19:12)
- First things first...? By: joeblow (22/11/2004 - 13:42)
- Re: First things first...? By: (20/12/2005 - 18:42)
- Re: First things first...? By: Qry (20/12/2005 - 22:47)
- Second things second... By: (22/11/2004 - 14:45)
- Extra category? By: Matt (22/11/2004 - 15:19)
- Yup! By: joeblow (22/11/2004 - 16:15)
- My suggestion would be that w By: andrew (22/11/2004 - 16:41)
- Good plan, Stan/Andrew By: joeblow (22/11/2004 - 17:47)
- My suggestion would be that w By: andrew (22/11/2004 - 16:41)
- Yup! By: joeblow (22/11/2004 - 16:15)
- Extra category? By: Matt (22/11/2004 - 15:19)
- Re: First things first...? By: (20/12/2005 - 18:42)
- Cosmic Child Abuse/Atonement By: (20/11/2004 - 04:10)
- ...And Justice for All? By: ga_ge (20/11/2004 - 20:15)
- Justice? Or slander against God? By: ross (20/11/2004 - 21:44)
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- One thing that disturbs me in By: ericboehmer (21/11/2004 - 00:02)
- But we preach Christ crucified...(right?) By: Alario (21/11/2004 - 05:47)
- Justice? Or slander against God? By: ross (20/11/2004 - 21:44)
- ...And Justice for All? By: ga_ge (20/11/2004 - 20:15)
- How to talk about the atonement By: (15/11/2004 - 16:50)
- Historically contingent analogies By: groundshero (22/11/2004 - 04:30)
- to joeblow By: ga_ge (15/11/2004 - 22:17)
- picking on penal substitution... By: joeblow (16/11/2004 - 13:48)
- Toning By: ga_ge (16/11/2004 - 16:32)
- Atonement By: Ken Cameron (07/07/2006 - 21:02)
- What kind of God needs a bribe to love? By: Matt (19/11/2004 - 14:17)
- National forgiveness and Yhwh's justice By: ericboehmer (20/11/2004 - 01:48)
- re: National forgiveness and Yhwh's justice By: davedyk (11/01/2005 - 01:22)
- freedom and responsibility By: ericboehmer (11/01/2005 - 07:03)
- National forgiveness I get; justice I don't By: Matt (22/11/2004 - 02:32)
- re: National forgiveness and Yhwh's justice By: davedyk (11/01/2005 - 01:22)
- National forgiveness and Yhwh's justice By: ericboehmer (20/11/2004 - 01:48)
- Toning By: ga_ge (16/11/2004 - 16:32)
- picking on penal substitution... By: joeblow (16/11/2004 - 13:48)
- 2 COR 5: 19 a) By: ga_ge (15/11/2004 - 15:05)
- 2 Co. 5:19 By: Qry (28/12/2004 - 22:33)
- Specifically... By: ga_ge (30/12/2004 - 23:49)
- 2 Co. 5:19 By: Qry (28/12/2004 - 22:33)
Re: First things first...?
YES, OF COURSE!
But this is the result of the redemptive activitiy, and if we want to be true to all of it, it is even eschatological result because all the happiness and joy described will only become perfect in heaven.
And it can also be viewed as an illustration, not explanation. It is precisely the ransom saying (Mat. 20:28; Mark 10:45) that describes the death of Jesus as a ransom but does not tell to whom it is paid. The Greek word anti [pollÅn] you suggest to translate as to [many] only implies that it is paid on our behalf, for our benefit, but nothing more is said. Elswhere the death of Jesus is also illustrated as a sacrifice and a means of reconciliation.
Likewise God ransomed Israel from Egypt (Ex.6:6) but how did he pay to Egyptians? By killing their firstorn? Thus the ransom implies freeing, and in Jesus’ words, also that it has required from God self-sacrifice, it did not just happen. But it still does not explain to whom God paid. And if we say that God paid to sin or to death, we are speaking allegorically, it’s not an explanation.
Actually, the Bible is not into explaining much; it does tell why Jesus died but does not explain how the process of salvation works. It is us who today want the explanation because our way of thinking is different (we are heirs of Greek logical thinking, whereas the biblical authors belonged to Hebrew illustrative thinking).
And one of our attempts of explanation is the so called penal substitution theory that, however, leads to legalism (see this thread).
I think that it would be much better to view the whole story as a drama where God is misrepresented as an authoritarian and selfish person (Gen. 3) and revealed by Jesus as loving, sef-sacrificing person (John 1:18; 3:16; 13:1; 15:13; 17:3).
We did not know who God really is, so we did not want to trust him. We were rebels and if God did not do anything, we would die in our rebellion. But Jesus came, lived, died, and was raised to reveal who God really is. Because of this, some of us, rebels, began to trust him, and God will be able to save all who trust him!