Christians Categorically Reject Reason
Can we teach an old dogmatism new tricks? By: Andrew (31 replies) 3 September, 2003 - 16:39
- Submission versus Reason By: Sceptic (23/06/2005 - 17:09)
- Reason is not in opposition to Revelation By: hungertruth (23/06/2005 - 19:47)
- One reason why Karl Barth By: Pluralist (12/08/2005 - 16:36)
- Barth, reason, revelation and pendulums By: peter wilkinson (12/08/2005 - 19:34)
- Barth and redeemed reason By: Lawrence (16/08/2005 - 00:13)
- Regarding >In fact he was By: Pluralist (16/08/2005 - 11:47)
- You're pretty certain about faith ... By: Lawrence (18/08/2005 - 10:53)
- There are quite a number of By: Pluralist (18/08/2005 - 22:19)
- Thanks, Pluralist By: Lawrence (19/08/2005 - 12:35)
- Resuscitation - Resurrection By: peter wilkinson (19/08/2005 - 12:59)
- Resurrection terminology By: Pluralist (19/08/2005 - 18:30)
- Resurrection as 'reading back' from later spiritual experiences By: peter wilkinson (19/08/2005 - 20:17)
- Conceptual misleads By: Pluralist (20/08/2005 - 17:48)
- The other way round By: Lawrence (20/08/2005 - 22:23)
- >They testified to what they By: Pluralist (22/08/2005 - 03:28)
- Let's Amputate Faith Altogether! By: hungertruth (21/08/2005 - 21:16)
- Faith for me is a shorthand By: Pluralist (22/08/2005 - 03:39)
- Faith, morality, reason and the knowledge of God By: Lawrence (21/08/2005 - 22:58)
- The other way round By: Lawrence (20/08/2005 - 22:23)
- Conceptual misleads By: Pluralist (20/08/2005 - 17:48)
- Resurrection as 'reading back' from later spiritual experiences By: peter wilkinson (19/08/2005 - 20:17)
- Resurrection terminology By: Pluralist (19/08/2005 - 18:30)
- Resuscitation - Resurrection By: peter wilkinson (19/08/2005 - 12:59)
- Thanks, Pluralist By: Lawrence (19/08/2005 - 12:35)
- There are quite a number of By: Pluralist (18/08/2005 - 22:19)
- Reason, Culture, Spirit, and Resurrection By: hungertruth (16/08/2005 - 19:24)
- Fallen reason & credo ut intelligam By: Lawrence (16/08/2005 - 23:44)
- Of course I have a faith By: Pluralist (17/08/2005 - 04:10)
- A man of your times! By: Lawrence (17/08/2005 - 14:37)
- Entering the world of pluralism By: peter wilkinson (17/08/2005 - 12:02)
- Of course I have a faith By: Pluralist (17/08/2005 - 04:10)
- The resurrection, 'faith presuppositions' , religious jargon etc By: peter wilkinson (16/08/2005 - 23:37)
- Fallen reason & credo ut intelligam By: Lawrence (16/08/2005 - 23:44)
- You're pretty certain about faith ... By: Lawrence (18/08/2005 - 10:53)
- Barth, Borg, and neo-orthodoxy By: (16/08/2005 - 09:03)
- Regarding >In fact he was By: Pluralist (16/08/2005 - 11:47)
- our understanding in By: (14/08/2005 - 00:05)
- God a projection of culture etc By: peter wilkinson (15/08/2005 - 18:35)
- Religious traditions and God(s) By: hungertruth (15/08/2005 - 01:46)
- The main issue is the By: Pluralist (15/08/2005 - 17:33)
- Barth and redeemed reason By: Lawrence (16/08/2005 - 00:13)
- Barth, reason, revelation and pendulums By: peter wilkinson (12/08/2005 - 19:34)
- Reason Alone? By: Sceptic (24/06/2005 - 01:57)
- Christians Categorically Reject Reason By: (03/07/2005 - 20:48)
- One reason why Karl Barth By: Pluralist (12/08/2005 - 16:36)
- Reason is not in opposition to Revelation By: hungertruth (23/06/2005 - 19:47)
Christians Categorically Reject Reason
Let’s see if we can continue to progress and establish some foundations. I wanted to make a few remarks concerning some of the material in your last post.
First of all, I’m not so sure that the importance of reason distinguishes Christianity from other religions. I think traditionally/historically, Christians have not typically relied on reason to guide their ideas, but would use reasons insofar as reason backed up their belief system. Secondly, when you state that Christian theology considers reasons to fall short, this seems ambiguous. I agree that most Christian theologies (but not all) would say something like this, but what does it really mean. I think a lot of confusion about ideas of faith and reason begin here.
As you point out, allowing new information to revise older models of belief is beneficial and helpful in the search of truth. Another good point is made when you imply that truth does not need allegiance or defense as it will stand on its own. If one believes something to be true, there should be no fear of opposition, because ultimately how can one knock down what is clearly true. Secondly, if a belief is shown to be false, the believer should simply modify, change, and alter his views. The problem comes into the mix when people identify themselves with a particular tradition or belief and find their own identity by defending and representing a particular viewpoint.
This depends on how you are using the word knowledge. Do we know that Caesar crossed the Rubicon? By modern standards, we usually use the word “know” in this context, but do we know with 100% accuracy? Do we have absolute certainty? No, but what do we know with absolute certainty? It seems that we have a high degree of certainty that he crossed the Rubicon as we do with many historical events. I would place the resurrection of Jesus in this same category. The resurrection of Jesus is the best explanation for the empty tomb. This being said, we should speak in terms of probabilities rather than certainties to be realistic and honest with the evidence.
I can sympathize with your point here. Christians, for the most part, are the most unreasonable people when it comes to logic and reasoned discussion. I think you nailed it on the head when you refer to this emotional attachment that stems from an experience with God that they have had or are having. Once this has occurred, arguments lose their force. It’s like trying to prove to them that their parents don’t exist or do not have an active roll in their life; a big waste of time. Secondly, Christians adhere to logic only when it helps their position. When the law of non-contradiction is applied to their ideas about God (Trinity), Jesus (dual-nature theory), and Bible (dual authorship) etc… they escape contradiction by appealing to mystery, or say something to the extent that their ideas are “above reason”, not “against reason.” The problem with doing this is that anyone can say that their ideas are mysteries, or above reason. This is a flat denial of the problem, not an answer to it.
I agree with this entirely. Traditional Christianity is a mixture of pagan/Greek ideas and Jewish/Hebrew theology. The concept of the immortality of the soul is one example. This idea can be found in Platonic philosophy, but nowhere in the Hebrew Bible.
Skeptic, I have enjoyed our discussion and I look forward to hearing back.