Judging the nations
Can a Christian Support War? By: sbryan (32 replies) 20 March, 2005 - 06:50
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: gmanon (25/01/2010 - 21:12)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: www.theGODscam.com (19/09/2009 - 17:46)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: Jacob (19/09/2009 - 20:23)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: www.theGODscam.com (20/09/2009 - 00:59)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: Jacob (20/09/2009 - 02:51)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: www.theGODscam.com (20/09/2009 - 03:53)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: Jacob (20/09/2009 - 06:08)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: www.theGODscam.com (20/09/2009 - 06:53)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: Jacob (20/09/2009 - 16:51)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: www.theGODscam.com (20/09/2009 - 06:53)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: Jacob (20/09/2009 - 06:08)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: www.theGODscam.com (20/09/2009 - 03:53)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: Jacob (20/09/2009 - 02:51)
- Can it ever be more than just-a-war and not “just” war? By: JPR (20/09/2009 - 00:25)
- Re: Can it ever be more than just-a-war and not “just” war? By: www.theGODscam.com (20/09/2009 - 00:59)
- Tell me, it's not a Scam ... By: JPR (20/09/2009 - 03:23)
- Re: Tell me, it's not a Scam ... By: www.theGODscam.com (20/09/2009 - 03:32)
- Re: Tell me, it's not a Scam ... By: JPR (20/09/2009 - 03:39)
- Re: Tell me, it's not a Scam ... By: www.theGODscam.com (20/09/2009 - 03:32)
- Tell me, it's not a Scam ... By: JPR (20/09/2009 - 03:23)
- Re: Can it ever be more than just-a-war and not “just” war? By: www.theGODscam.com (20/09/2009 - 00:59)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: www.theGODscam.com (20/09/2009 - 00:59)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: Jacob (19/09/2009 - 20:23)
- Re: Can a Christian Support War? By: Jacob (18/09/2007 - 18:28)
- just war... By: danutz (18/06/2007 - 23:48)
- Re: just war... By: jhimm (18/09/2007 - 22:22)
- One step back By: andrew (20/03/2005 - 12:23)
- Are the rules really different? By: sbryan (20/03/2005 - 19:03)
- Participation in war and Christian vocation By: peter wilkinson (20/03/2005 - 23:17)
- Let's make it more personal By: grifgraf (06/05/2005 - 10:35)
- bloodshed, rape, and the Christian virtues By: Daniel D. Farmer (18/06/2007 - 15:58)
- The Cross and the cellar By: peter wilkinson (21/03/2005 - 19:01)
- http://www.unionoffaiths.com
By: mertfaruk (28/03/2005 - 22:49)
- mertfaruk By: (29/03/2005 - 10:55)
- http://www.unionoffaiths.com
By: mertfaruk (28/03/2005 - 22:49)
- Let's make it more personal By: grifgraf (06/05/2005 - 10:35)
- War and peace By: andrew (20/03/2005 - 23:15)
- War and Peace By: juggernaught_c (27/03/2005 - 04:50)
- Imperfect instruments of judgment By: andrew (28/03/2005 - 18:42)
- ? By: sbryan (25/03/2005 - 00:07)
- Judging the nations By: andrew (26/03/2005 - 12:34)
- Who judges the nations? By: Christopher Jones (26/03/2005 - 14:54)
- These are fair comments. I di By: andrew (28/03/2005 - 18:49)
- Who judges the nations? By: Christopher Jones (26/03/2005 - 14:54)
- Judging the nations By: andrew (26/03/2005 - 12:34)
- War and Peace By: juggernaught_c (27/03/2005 - 04:50)
- Participation in war and Christian vocation By: peter wilkinson (20/03/2005 - 23:17)
- Are the rules really different? By: sbryan (20/03/2005 - 19:03)
Judging the nations
Thanks - you raise some important questions and make it clear that these matters need careful thought.
No, of course not. If the argument is valid at all, the church would need some sort of prophetic guidance in determining whether or not, and in what way, a particular international event constituted an ‘act of God’ - and I have to say, I would not be very confident at the moment that the church (which church?) would reach prophetic consensus in such an event. The OT paradigm was more straightforward, mainly because the nations that came under judgment tended to be those that oppressed or attacked Israel. The basic pattern is that Israel is judged through the instrumentality of some foreign power, then that foreign power is itself judged. There are, however, some instances where a nation is judged, or threatened with judgment, independent of any threat that it may pose to Israel - Nineveh is the obvious example. Even then, Jonah’s ambivalence about the whole thing indicates how difficult it was to make clear, unequivocal prophetic statements about the nations. And there was no shortage of false prophets around to confuse people.
The judgment on Rome (at least according to my reading of NT eschatology) is at least one exception to that. But I’m not sure it’s so difficult to see the fall of the Soviet Union, for example, a power explicitly hostile to the idea of God, as an event like the fall of Rome or the fall of Babylon before that. If we can say that this enemy of God has not finally triumphed, surely we can also say that God has judged and overthrown his enemy? If we baulk at this sort of language, perhaps there are better ways of saying it, but I’m not sure the point is wrong in principle.
What bothers me about this sort of argument is that it appears to reinforce the privatization of faith that I think has contributed hugely to the irrelevance of the church in the West. I agree it is extremely difficult to evaluate what’s good and bad at the level of national and international politics. But maybe the response to that is not to retreat into private visions of the kingdom but to learn how to ‘judge’ properly - learn a credible and coherent (and humble) public theology. Isn’t the emerging church struggling towards just that? For now prophetic reticence may be in order - but I do believe that God called the church into existence, placed it among the nations of the world, for a purpose that cannot be achieved by withdrawing from an engagement in public discourse. It’s a massive challenge, but isn’t that what we have the Spirit of God for?